Catholic Exchange Forums Topic: War in the mid-east

Catholic Exchange Forums Topic: War in the mid-east http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Catholic Exchange Forums Topic: War in the mid-east en Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:50:23 +0000 bhokuto on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12309 Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:40:51 +0000 bhokuto 12309@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Pray to Holy Mother, that this war would end with Gods protection and resolve, instead of asking for the obvious ask for the something God wants to hear; and that all wars will be avoided in the future. Daily. Rosary. some short prayers inbetween using the rosary beads around and around. As long as there are those who persist in wanting this war to sustain, we need to be louder than them before Almighty God. Peace KenB on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12308 Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:55:50 +0000 KenB 12308@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Well, regardless of how I do not like this war and think it was ill-advised, I also do not think it right for us - especially after all we have already done - to just pack it up and say "so long and good luck". I think if we did that, any Iraqi folks who cooperated with us - especially the Kurds - would be slaughtered wholesale by those who currently oppose us and are waiting to step in and take over.I think Bush recently correctly reminded us of the bloodbath that took place after we abandoned Vietnam. I am too young to remember much about Vietnam, but from what I have read, the Kmher Rouge and the Communists slaughtered over a million people from 1975 on into the 1980's. Most of that was our fault for abandoning South Vietnam and leaving a power vacuum in our wake.I think we need to pray a lot regarding all this, and while keeping our national interests in minds and honestly looking for the best and fastest way to bring our troops home, we also ought to live up to our national character of honesty by owning up to the commitments we have made, either explicit or inferred, to those in Iraq. In summary, I think we need to pray about this very hard and very often, both for forgiveness and for the wisdom to get our soldiers out of there while at the same time not triggering the slaughter of those who have cooperated with us. nezatda on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12307 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 02:37:51 +0000 nezatda 12307@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Maybe, just maybe, there is change coming. There are a few politicians on the national scene that, if elected, could bode well for the future of our country. Let us pray! pouliot on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12310 Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:22:20 +0000 pouliot 12310@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ To: nezatda <blockquote>RE: "When necessary, why not organise, equip, train and support a country to police itself. Why wasn't this done with a coalition of Arabic countries in opposition to Saddam Hussein? The trillions spent sending our troops and equipment to Iraq could have been used to help a people help themselves. There was plenty of time to prepare opposition to Hussein. I believe the best option would have been to encourage Muslim countries to police themselves. As for helping the needy, (this does not include politicians and oil companies), the USA has the money, manpower, and willingness. All that's lacking is the leadership."</blockquote>You've raised quite a number of good questions.  I doubt I am qualified to even help figure them out.  As you are a veteran, I would be inclined to yield to your judgment. And yet, yet I have a few concerns about diplomacy, and the rest.First of all though, the US strengthened Saddam itself, if it didn't essentially prop him up because he was a counter to the radical Iranians.  The US did the same thing to the Taliban in Afghanistan because the US wanted the Russians out.As regards diplomacy I think the US is hopelessly naive on the international stage.  The US is a child when it comes to alliances & coalitions & generally it is blind to the intractable features of other societies.  Also, I do not think there was adequate time to achieve a diplomatic solution.  A diplomatic solution has been pursued in the near east for over 40 years and all it has produced is chaos in Lebanon and tyrants in Damascus, Tehran, Saudi Arabia, & Baghdad.  (Have I left any out?)  Either diplomacy is not an answer or the US is too inept at it.  In either case, diplomacy cannot have any result.  The question is nuclear weapons and the means of delivery.If I were your ship's Captain & I thought we had been picked up on sonar by a hunter-killer sub, would you expect me to surface to hold talks, or would you want me to arm the torpedoes?  For my part, reverse the roles, & I'd want you to arm those torpedoes and fire a salvo.Please don't be offended, I'm just trying to explain how I come to my views.However, the above notwithstanding, I do believe the US made a mistake in hunting down Saddam.  It meant the coalition forces were in the country too long.  And having missed the time to leave to catch him, once the US had him they should have spirited him out to stand trial at the Hague.  How dumb was it to think the charade of a fair trial would be sustainable?On the attack strategy I think errors were made as well.  Psyops were too effective & motivated too many to kick off their shoes & go underground.  When the coalition was winning a battle psyops ought to have broadcast a decoying call for all jihadists to come and crush the fleeing invaders.  More of them could have been killed as they mistakenly attacked, & fewer would have had to be hunted down later.  Before any particular group had had time to dominaet, the coaliton ought to have returned to the staging areas.  As soon as a dominating force had fought its way to the top of the heap, the US should have demanded the weapons shops be shut down, all physicists be registered & interrogated, & all terrorists be turned.  Had this been done in a particular way, there would not have been any compliance and the coalition (or just the US if need be) would then have been able to attack again.  The pattern ought to have been repeated until a comlaisant Government was established.  Then rebuilding ought to have been started with the priority to get the oil flowing again so there would be funds to continue the rebuilding.  That oil has rarely gone to the US, & that's fine.  As long as it had been pumped & put on the market, oil prices would have been lower. The real problem with oil for the US is that the Congress has never, in 30 years, given a serious thought to developing an alternative for powering the automobile.  Ecomaniacs & rabid environmentalists have consistently opposed nucear energy development but they still insist on using their autos & hair dryers & AC.  All US purchases of oil from the Saudis & Kuwait funds the status quo, including the anti-western religious schools.I am straying from my objective.  It is late for me, I need to sleep. Thank you for your service.  I pray all is well with your son.  (Two of our parishoners are in "harm's way" too.)<dl><dt>Regards,</dt><dd>Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)</dd></dl> bhokuto on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12306 Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:39:05 +0000 bhokuto 12306@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ I think the war will on terror(a likely name for the rich to weed out whatever it is they're upto) will change to something other. Some big wig waving peace maker will smooze over the world. Aye it's prophesied. Life in the world will change to a on the surface peace because men will be happy that killing is over, ah, wrong only to find themselves enslaved to what's even worse. The bad guy. It's a coming men. The world is silly place, where vice is rampant. Avarice! Protect the Rock on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12305 Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:47:39 +0000 Protect the Rock 12305@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ The king is a fink! Throw the bums out and bring the troops home!But consider:<ul><li>At the beginning of the US Civil War, no one thought that burning a hundred-mile path of utter destruction twenty-miles wide inside our own nation was acceptable, much less a good idea. But by the end of the war, Sherman's march to the sea was considered acceptable and even necessary to win.</li><li> At the beginning of WWI, no one considered dropping poison gas over men on the battlefield was was an acceptable thing to do, but by the end of that war, it was accepted and used by both sides.</li><li> When the Germans began WWII with dive bombers over civilian cities, the US considered it an unacceptable method of war. By the end of the war, the US firebombed and nuked cities with no military value, killing hundreds of thousands.</li><li>When the Cold War began, neither the USSR nor the USA had the capacity to destroy the other - both were exhausted. But within a decade the Cold War strategy was based on Mutually Assured Destruction of both countries (and many more).</li></ul>The point is that America has a history of adopting savage methods of waging warfare at the end of a conflict that were universally considered unacceptable at the begining of the conflict.If we give up on Plan A in this global war on terror because we have no patience to engage a messy, extended insurgency -- even with <1,000 combat losses per year -- what methods will America resort to when there are more terrorist attacks on US soil? The USA still has enormous unused capabilities, including the capacity to kill millions with the push of a button.Let's pray that Plan A works, because Plan B is likely to be bad. Very bad. grumpybumpas on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12304 Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:06:22 +0000 grumpybumpas 12304@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ (New kid on the block,just waiving a hand.)  (WAR.)  There will always be war insolong as there is profit in war.  All wars are started by the rich and powerfu and fought by the poor and the stupid (Peasents.)  When is the last time that you heard of a millionairs son being killed in an American made for television war???  If we were able to view the finansial investment portfolio of our national leaders we would probably better understand why there is no end to our mini made for television wars. lpioch on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12303 Fri, 25 May 2007 14:51:21 +0000 lpioch 12303@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ I saw a bumpersticker yesterday. It said"War never solved anything...except slavery, fascism, nazism, communism"  Protect the Rock on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12302 Wed, 09 May 2007 08:28:40 +0000 Protect the Rock 12302@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Please recall that there were ex patriot Iraqis whom we backed. They went back into Iraq before the invasion and recruited people, some of whom we trained to go in after our forces ousted Saddam Hussein and take control. They were called the <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/030421/21war.b1.htm">Free Iraqi Forces</a>, or FIF. Unfortunately, we concluded they had political credibility, a following within Iraq and would be more dedicated to stability than to revenge. In fact, they did not and were not. So we did go in with a plan to "do it right." Once freed, often people who have been terrorized and victimized for many years are less capable of being grateful beneficiaries of stabilty and opportunity, and more capable of becoming vengeful abusers themselves. Have you ever seen a bird that somehow got into a shopping mall? It is upset and flying around trying to get out, but it doesn't know how to get free. Then comes the mall security guy who is trying to help rescue the bird, but the bird is afraid and tries to get further away from the rescuer and gets into more of a mess, it even comes after the rescuer, the one who is trying to help it get free. Sometimes the bird gets hurt or killed by misunderstanding and reacting wrongly to those trying to rescue it.I think God must see us like that bird sometimes. nezatda on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12301 Wed, 09 May 2007 05:18:39 +0000 nezatda 12301@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ There are people throughout the globe that could use our country's help, but is waging war the only answer? When necessary, why not organise, equip, train and support a country to police itself. Why wasn't this done with a coalition of Arabic countries in opposition to Saddam Hussein? The trillions spent sending our troops and equipment to Iraq could have been used to help a people help themselves. There was plenty of time to prepare opposition to Hussein. I believe the best option would have been to encourage Muslim countries to police themselves. As for helping the needy, (this does not include politicians and oil companies), the USA has the money, manpower, and willingness. All that's lacking is the leadership. pouliot on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12300 Mon, 07 May 2007 12:29:39 +0000 pouliot 12300@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ To: nezatda <blockquote>RE: "A two year tour would give our citizens... "</blockquote>Let's start with the politicians.  It ought to be a prerequisite for national office, especially for the Presidency and those in line to succeed.<dl><dt>Regards,</dt><dd>Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)</dd></dl> pouliot on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12299 Mon, 07 May 2007 12:27:09 +0000 pouliot 12299@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ To: nezatda <blockquote>RE: "I believe military service should be mandatory."</blockquote>I read in the paper the report of a conversation with one of the brave men headed back into harm's way.  When this man was asked about draftees being called on if needed, he was quietly and firmly opposed.  His reasons were not elaborated but I can suppose what some of them might be.  Please accept my gratitude for your son's service in the cause of freedom and democracy and pass it on to him as soon as possible.  I know some of the people who were in the Pentagon when it was hit.  Fortunately the people I knew safely evacuated.  Our office assistant however, was acquainted with one of the casualties.  A mere janitor trying to earn a living for his family.  I myself once worked adjacent to the point of impact.  My son's home in PA was under the flight path of the aircraft brought down by the courageous passengers, or by the hijackers in reaction to the passengers counter-attack.  I also have a fellow descendant who was assasinated in Kuwait.  A cracker-jack mathematician I understand although I personally never met him.  He was survived by his wife and a young daughter.  The convicted killer was released from a Kuwaiti jail after serving less than two years of a 50 year sentence.  I wish you had a chance to meet some of the Iraqi children who are grateful for our bumbling attempts to make schooling available to them as well as for all the other things our troops are trying to do.  For those who believe this could have been avoided by diplomacy, I must say I am not so confident.  I believe that is unconscionably riskier than the current course.  After what McVeigh showed the terrorists I think it is very important that we take the fight to their nests.  I've spoken to a few Muslims living in this country and I was much taken aback by their virulence and stubbornness, and this was long before 9/11.  A Korean runs amok in a Virginia school and the Korean Government apologizes!! As far as I know the Government of Korea had nothing to do with Cho's enrollment.  On the other hand, 5,000+ die in an unprovoked attack and apologies are not even broached.  Instead it's how we did this of did that to bring this on ourselves.  Had those weapons that were secretly removed from Iraq in the day's running up to the attack, to find a home where? Syria? Russia? Pakistan? been made available to the likes of the hi-jackers, we might be looking at some fairly large grave sites.  Enough.  Madness reigns.<dl><dt>Regards,</dt><dd>Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)</dd></dl> nezatda on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12298 Thu, 03 May 2007 05:57:52 +0000 nezatda 12298@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ I want to thank those that are helping my frustration with our involvement in Iraq. Your dialog is good cause for pause and consideration. My daily prayers include all our Armed Forces and those that govern. My consternation originates with attempts by liberal factions to destroy our country's core values.To add to this discussion, I would like to state that I believe military service should be mandatory. A two year tour would give our citizens an appreciation of what keeps this country free. Learning responsibility and team work would be an asset for future employment. We are not always at war and there are many military positions that don't involve being a warrior.Also, something has to be done to eliminate people buying office. With the price going up to be elected, so does the obligation to special interest groups. It has been a while since I've seen a politician that is a "man or woman of the people". Rich people, or their cronies, make the rules in our society. Mainstream candidates very seldom appear on ballots. Soldier4Christ on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12297 Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:13:09 +0000 Soldier4Christ 12297@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ What we should do is finish the job and stop second-guessing. When we first invaded, the majority of Americans backed us. Now, after returning from my third tour in Iraq, there is more and more hostility toward the war, the government, and the military. The longer the war goes, the more we need to show our resolve as a nation. Instead, it looks as if the general U.S. populace is giving up. The military sure isn't, and I have seen nothing but progress in Iraq, but back here in the States, you would think it's a lost cause or something. War is never easy. People die. But sometimes it has to happen. When you have an inhumane, radical super control freak dictator who refuses to see reality, you aren't going to get too far diplomatically. We didn't go to war over oil; that had nothing to do with it. We went to overthrow a regime and liberate a country. Also, of course, in response to the chemical weapons of which we haven't found many. But, the bottom line is: "If you want peace, you have to work for justice." - Pope Paul VI ------------------------  Pray as if everything depended on God, and work as if everything depended on you. -St. Ignatius of Loyola    KenB on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12296 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:06:09 +0000 KenB 12296@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ I wish our president had taken the advice of pope Benedict, and found a way to not go to war in Iraq. Still, he is our elected president and decided to go to war, and our elected representatives in Congress agreed and authorized it. Moreover, whether you like it or not, your son volunteered for military service. You may not agree with your son's decision, but that disagreement is between you and him, not you and the military. Your son was not drafted.That having been said Nezatda, I understand your frustration. Why do we still buy Arab oil? Why has our government not started a Manhatten-style project to develop reasonable alternatives to filling our cars with gasoline? I will never understand why, after 9-11 - instead of telling people to "go shopping, go about your lives" - Bush did not ask for sacrifice on the part of the people of this nation. He should have 1. Rationed gasoline and laid a tax on it to double price2. Use the extra tax to pay for alternative research.3. Rounded up the so-called scientists in this country and drafted them into the service of their land under a military-run, Manhatten-stly project to develop (quickly) an alternative, i.e., one alternative to gasoline for cars. Not pie in the sky ideas like free bubble up and rainbow stew, using frying oil to run a volkswagon with a solar cell on the roof and the like, but a real alternative that can use existing infrastructure.4. He should have built one nuclear plant in each state, using the French safety model of only allowing two models of plant, one large, and the other small. That way worker could be transferred from plant to plant and not need as much retraining.5. Halt all immigration from Arab and other lands with majority Muslim populations. Only allow heads of states and their entourages to visit here. Explain that we understand they hate us, and until we sort this out, we need to have distance between us and them. Because we are a broad minded people however, we would reconsider this policy after 10 years, or sooner, if we felt more comfortable.6. If either the oil compaines or power industry gave any flack, he should have threatened to nationalize them. FDR effectively placed the automobile industry under federal control during WW2, and given how important oil is to our nation, Bush should have done something similar.-------- But none of this was done, and since Democrats offered no real alternative in 2004 (Kerry and his drunken wife were a sad joke), we re-elected Bush, and now we have what we have.Now the question is, what should we do?I know what I would like to see, but am curious to know your opinion.Thanks, and God bless. Protect the Rock on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12295 Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:13:05 +0000 Protect the Rock 12295@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ nezatda,Thank you for your service and please extend my sincere thanks to your son. Know that we pray for all those deployed each day.Service in the armed forces of the USA is, sad to say, largely unappreciated. If one truly believes that serving is not worth the lives of those in theater, then one should not serve. But please consider how one comes to hold such a belief. And how is coming to this mindset, that the people in Iraq or Afghanistan, or __________ (fill in the blank) are not worth one drop of American blood, any different than the beliefs of the men which caused the situation that brought us to war? Not that it is in any way simple, but whenever we resort to the force of arms we have to know what we are doing is for the right reason. Not for the gratitude or appreciation of the crowd. Indeed, often the opposite.War represents a failure of our humanity; and often those who have seen it up close are the ones who are most tempted to drink from the cup of poison which denies our common humanity -- the same poison which brought the war to begin with. Yet our common humanity is what we must cling to most of all if we are to become who we are -- in the image and likeness of our heavenly Father.The only thing I could pre-judge you about regarding Louisiana is that you live in a place with an unfair share of natural beauty and cultural life.Peace. nezatda on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12294 Fri, 13 Apr 2007 06:35:51 +0000 nezatda 12294@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ needasaint... apology made for calling any of God's human creations "animals". Reread the rest of what I said and drop your psycho-babel analysis of the state of my soul. I despise hypocritical "Christians". You should know better than to make false accusations on the state of any person's soul! What is really your problem? Is it that I don't want anymore Americans to die fighting for an unappreciative people, or for political reasons, or so Americans can drive gas-guzzlers? Can you even relate to our young people coming home in caskets or disabled for life, and for what good reason? Can you ignore the fact that these patriots are dying while some others that live here are cursing them and every good thing this country once stood for? Or could it be that you prejudge me because I live in Louisiana? needasaint on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12293 Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:09:51 +0000 needasaint 12293@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Dear Sir:I would go as far as this, we need to pray to God for sinners to be converted and that we become more holy. We are not citizens of this world any longer we are here to find God and hopefully others to find God through our witness.I spent some time in Germany while a USA, found myself in hot water during the time of the terrorists, between two factions, how I got out, I can't really say but I know it was God who certainly did. Our life on this earth is pitiful compared to the Heavenly bliss we are to consider and obtain through letting go of worthless earthly garbage that clogs the soul and leads to less then par life. It's interesting that you say "those animals", that's exactly how they see us.Is it worth getting into a pitching fit only to lose your soul? It is not. God loves the sinner no matter what color his skin is or what language they speak or whatever they believe. Pray that you may become fishers of men through His holy power.Jesus loves us all no matter what you think and feel, God is above us and our thinking and understanding is unable to comprehend this, thus our intellect and our understanding needs to be enlightened by our souls who talks to God. Our souls understand the language of God, our minds do not. Your anger is a result of the natural occurences you take in to your mind and then goes into your soul. God talks to us from Heaven to your soul through a series of breaking the natural things your soul has been fed. Cleansing the soul through prayer and feeding it spiritual things will give rise to a better understanding, reconditioning your mind to things above. When we look with our carnal minds we act carnally.When we look with our spiritual minds we act spiritually.We must lay waste to the carnality and walk spiritually.A pain in your soul is made manifest in your body, a happy soul has a healthy body.Peace be with you     nezatda on "War in the mid-east" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/715#post-12292 Mon, 09 Apr 2007 05:13:41 +0000 nezatda 12292@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ <div>You know what, I don't think those animals are worth one drop of American blood. My son will probably be making his second tour and he's proud to serve. Although we don't talk about it, I don't want him to return to any radical Muslim country. To hell with them, and every politician, and every barrel of oil, and every left-winger, and every right-winger, and every conservative and every liberal journalist who have helped to put him in harm's way. I'm as American as any of you, but I'm tired of "dead" heroes. How about some "live" sons and daughters, husbands and wives, and dads and mothers. Keep this up and the only Americans left alive will be the God-less ones destroying this country from within! </div><div></div><div></div><div>Dave Nezat, USN sub vet, Louisiana</div>