Catholic Exchange Forums Topic: still seeking

Catholic Exchange Forums Topic: still seeking http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Catholic Exchange Forums Topic: still seeking en Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:42:45 +0000 fishman on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13009 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:47:23 +0000 fishman 13009@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Noel - God IS love. To not love, even the devils would contradict the very nature of his being. That being said, damnation is in a mysterious way, that is probably beyond us all, an act of Love.  In some ways it makes sense I suppose, he does not force himself , where he is unwanted, but to be without him in eternity is almost the definition of hell. Still, even though one choose eternal suffering, the almighty God, who is fully capable of compelling you to choose otherwise does not force your choice. Again, he does not force your choice out of love for you, even if you choose hell.   noelfitz on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13008 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:24:31 +0000 noelfitz 13008@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Lorettamany thank for your immediate reply.I appreciate your post. I have always been helped and encouraged by your sound Christian views.On several occasions in the past I have expressed my perplexity and concerns about hell.Somttimes the replies have been flippant, sometime attacking me, but mostly showing Christian charity and goodwill.I really do not think there is an answer to my concern, other than what I have written.We all havee to hope in the mercy of God.I think of Julian of Morwich:All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well 'At our monthly meeting of the Newman Society of Ireland the members say Cardinal Newman's prayer:<div id="articlecontent"><img style="margin: 130px 60px 220px 0px" class="right" src="http://www.spirituality.org/i/newman.jpg" alt="John Henry Cardinal Newman" title="John Henry Cardinal Newman" width="120" height="160" /> God created me to do him some definite service; he has committed some work to me which he has not committed to another. I have my mission - I may never know it in this life, but I shall be told it in the next... Therefore, I will trust him... If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve him; in perplexity, my perplexity may serve him; if I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve him... He does nothing in vain; he may prolong my life, he may shorten it, he knows what he is about. </div>God bless, NoelFitz. _________________________________________________ In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas. _________________________________________________ lpioch on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13007 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:40:16 +0000 lpioch 13007@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ I hear you, Noel.I, too, was baffled by this seeming contradiction. I can't say it's all in my little brain yet, either. However, when I struggled with this, I recognized (as I'm sure you already do) that this reality is the intermingling of the freewill God gives us and God's justice. He never takes away His friendship. However, we can certainly reject it and turn our backs on it.Eversince I struggled with this, I incorporated a prayer into the Mass. I'll share it with you, and maybe you can find some answers from Our Lord in this way.At the elevation of the chalice, I say "My Jesus, Mercy!" and as the priest genuflects after lowering the chalice, I say, "I praise you and thank you for your Mercy, your Love, and your Justice."   noelfitz on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13006 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:01:19 +0000 noelfitz 13006@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ WIP  I was heartened by your reply to Chaletart. Thank you so much for sharing with us your deep feelings. Not only Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, but also St Therese of Lisieux had difficulties. I am reminded of Cardinal Newman who wrote that Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.  I am grateful to you for your courteous and thoughtful reply to me. You wrote: I am perplexed by your comments sometimes! I am perplexed myself. However here I feel it is a safe place to express one’s deepest thoughts, hoping that they will be accepted for what they are, sincere expressions of perplexity from a faithful, struggling Catholic. Of course one cannot claim God is a dictator, the consequences (hell) are too great. We know Deus caritas est - God is love. However one also knows that if one makes a wrong choice, even for a moment one can lose God’s friendship and if one dies in the state of mortal sin one goes to hell for all eternity. One chooses evil because it seemed good at the time (sub specie boni).For all eternity God keeps a person in hell, where the worm does not die and one is tormented in flames It is very difficult ro reconcile a good God with one who allows a person he created and loves to suffer forever.  ****************************************** One thinks particularly of St. Therese of Lisieux, who underwent a profound crisis of faith during her short life. The year before she died, she told her Mother Superior that the worst kind of atheistic arguments had entered her mind—specifically, the notion that science, by making ever-increasing progress, would eventually explain everything away naturally—would provide a materialistic answer for all that exists, thus destroying the basis for Christianity. <a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COPLES2.htm"><a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COPLES2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COPLES2.htm</a></a><div style="border-right: medium none; padding-right: 0cm; border-top: medium none; padding-left: 0cm; padding-bottom: 1pt; border-left: medium none; padding-top: 0cm; border-bottom: windowtext 3pt dotted"></div> …if you say, ‘You fool,’ you will be liable to the hell? of fire. (NRSV, Mt 5 22)And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into the hell? of fire. (NRSV, Mt 18 9)  Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (NRSV, Mt 10:28) You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? (NRSV, Mt 13:33) If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell,? to the unquenchable fire.? And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell.? And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell,? where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. (NRSV, Mk 9:43-48)  But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. (NRSV, Lk 12:5) ***************************************************************  God bless, NoelFitz. _________________________________________________ In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas. _________________________________________________ work in progress on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13005 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 03:57:36 +0000 work in progress 13005@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Noel, God never stops loving us. NEVER. We, on the other hand, have the capacity through our free will to refuse His love and thereby His grace. He does not force it on us, but calls us to him at every moment of every day of our lives. We chose whether our love is manifested in our willingness to follow His commandments or if our love is empty. Recall that a mortal sin cannot be commited without it first being a grave matter, that we have full knowledge of the gravity of the offense, and that we deliberately choose and consent to commit the offense. These things being present, in mortal sin, we have killed our relationship with God ourselves. He has not withheld His love. Your question suggests the Protestant idea of never losing one's salvation after accepting Christ as redeemer. A nice idea, but what then would be the consequence for living hedonistically after we have proclaimed our "love" for Christ? It is certainly not what Christ taught us. Did you really mean to suggest that God is a dictator? What loving parent would not have consequences for disobedience? The human dictators you mention have no love for humanity, nor did they ever offer those whom they murdered and persecuted any real means of salvation. And love? Noel, those evil men were not loved, but feared. I am perplexed by your comments sometimes! "The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith work in progress on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13004 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 03:38:54 +0000 work in progress 13004@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Chaletart, I have read your post several times, and find myself deeply saddened by your struggle. While I believe we are very definately affected by our experiences, and that those experiences can be used by Satan to foster distrust, fear, even hatred for God in our heart. Perhaps the Ignatian exercises should be set aside for a while. You certainly don't need anything that makes you discouraged! I know some very spiritual people, and I wonder if there will ever be a time in my life when I can share in such a deep connection with our Lord. I will continue to work toward that, but I must also ackowledge that Our Lord has given us different gifts, and mine may not be leading me to contemplative sprituality, but rather to action. I say a rosary daily, and every time I do, I wonder how in the world anyone can meditate on the mysteries while reciting the Hail Mary. I have decided (i.e. free will!) that my doubts about my personal effectiveness in my devotion will not stop me from remaining commited to offering it daily, and my hope that through it I will grow where God knows I need to grow. It would be so easy for me to throw in the towel. To decide that I'm just not ever going to be holy enough. But isn't that what the prince of darkness wants? Darkness is scary. Have you read about the saints? I was amazed to learn that Blessed Mother Theresa experiences such a long period of spiritual darkness. Are you on this journey alone? How are your friends, family, environment helping or hindering your growth? You didn't mention if you were Catholic, or if you had been baptised (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit). It is through our baptism that we recieve the gifts of faith, hope and charity.  "The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith bhokuto on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13003 Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:07:00 +0000 bhokuto 13003@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ It's all about the Knowledge you receive. Impact, take in, life is active. If you've been told by society that God is an "ogre" and you live with these kinds of people, you become like them, "In thinking, feeling and 'general' life style." General, because we can be steered both ways at anytime with some life changing drama. Which means, that if you were on the wrong path a jolt is required to bring you on the correct path. And if you're on the correct path(doesn't mean we've arrived) Satan tries to jolt you off of it. He's a cunning, crafty, devisive Devil. You think like them, you feel like them, you live like them. "You are what you eat" If you were brought up in a house where all the time people loved and cared, you would believe God is caring and loving because of the Love you received, witnessed, and breathed. Consequently, when you saw or witnessed Evil your perspecitve would still be the same. Knowledge + Experience equates your belief. If you eat at the Lords table, you will become Spiritual and enlightened as long as you fight against the Evil that "We" all inherited through "One" Mans Sin "Adam" . Because the Tree of Knowledge "Gave us Both" avenues to choose from, but the kicker is Satan added his poison. The inclination to Sin, a "strong inclination". This is called the natural tendency to be "lured" into Vice. Satan uses bait, Fishing example. If God had created us to know both Good and Evil, we would be like the Virgin Mary who only Had Knowledge of both Good and Evil, but not the poison of Evil the concupiscence. She Detest(s)(ed) Evil, because She came from God's Side. She was spared being born of Original Sin so She could Bear the Just One, Holy One, The Pure One. This is not to say we lower Her. This just explains God's side and Satan's side. God is able. Desire, to know, to love, it must come from within your soul. I come from a family of non-believers, who are proud and wouldn't hear nothing of God(still do not) but that is my test and cross to love them regardless of the past. Have to blow the past away. Satan uses it to hamper and to hold hostage. He comes to distort, to blind with false light. God does not live in the Past, thus He says, I wipe all your sins away. Peace noelfitz on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13002 Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:28:27 +0000 noelfitz 13002@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ JofaYou wrote:God loves him (your brother) unconditionally.I have difficulties with this.If one commits a mortal sin does one lose the love of God? Is the person in hell still loved by God?There is no exception, if one commits a mortal sin and dies, without being forgiven, one ends up in hell, with its punishments, for all eternity.Is that the way it is?I have heard it said that everyone loves a dictator. Hitler, Stalin and Herod were all loved. If one showed lack of devotion one ended up in a concentration camp, gulag or were killed.Who is going to say that (s)he does not love God and thus end up in hell?Surely God cannot be like that. But there is a problem.I would welcome comments.The way I see it is that God is God. Things are the way they are. We cannot understand God.Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? (NRSV, Rom 9:21)“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (NRSV, Rom 11:34) God bless, NoelFitz. _________________________________________________ In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas. _________________________________________________ jofa on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13001 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:37:43 +0000 jofa 13001@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ Usually we project our dysfunctional parents onto God and end up getting a twisted view of Him. I did that for a long time and ended up hating the Church and Christianity in general for years. God called me back but it has been a difficult path to accepting that God loves me. It is tough when you've been as damaged and injured as I have. My brother had a tough childhood, too, and I know he fears God - fears judgement. I try to let him know that God loves him unconditionally (as He loves you, too) and I show him through my actions, to the best of my ability. I know it's hard to imagine, but God loves you as if you were an only child - His only child. The fact that you wish you could convert means you're on that journey already. I hate to tell you, but all of us are still on that journey - it doesn't end till the end. The Bible is a love letter from God to us, so......Take heart, because "I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for woe! Plans to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11 (I memorized this verse and try to say it to myself even when I don't really believe it - it is starting to work - I am beginning to believe it!)Don't give up just before the miracle happens! chaletart on "still seeking" http://forums.catholicexchange.com/topic/789#post-13000 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:14:13 +0000 chaletart 13000@http://forums.catholicexchange.com/ I am still here and still seeking....right now I am still reading several books, but the one that interests me most is Letting God Come Close by William A. Barry. He states that you cannot approach the Ignatian Spiritual Exercise without seeing God as loving / Caring. I am still having trouble with that...he says that one should remember a caring time, or read/pray Psalms 8, 104 and 139.I wish I could convert but I still have so many issues..