It seems to me since Judas being 'chosen' to be an Apostle of Jesus
that he had to be in the 'in crowd'.
Now what I've ascertained from the scriptures is that Judas condemned himself? it seems to be eluding to this, but really it is not
it really depends on your point of view and how deep your truth reaches.
I pasted the verse below:
Matthew 27
3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, seeing that he was condemned, repenting himself, brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and ancients,
Now the author and the rest of the Apostles were on guard for the galantly young Apostle who thought to gain power to overthrow the
ancients of that time. There feelings towards him are evident that he did not really understand Jesus' doctrine at all. Yet Jesus loved him. Because God is love.
the order which the words are written is the clue.
Seeing he was 'condemned' (according to the auther) 'repenting himself' << this is the deciding heart of contrition. He brought back
the silver, and then we know what happened.
When true contrition happens penance, restitution in this case clears one from the deed. Judas had to betray Jesus is was order thus. But God is able to save 'anyone' who's heart is contrite and broken before God. The action afterwards shows he was not worthy to be called an Apostle and that he took that action to show the world He was wrong!
I believe deep in my heart Judas is in heaven.
What do you think?
Peace
Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life
Controversy concerning Judas
(223 posts)
Posted 1 year ago #
I don't know. I would like to think that all come to the realisation of the Soveriegnty of the Almighty God and the Redeemer who is Jesus.
Time is what could be the issue here. It is non exeistent to God, but ever present in our realties. One would think Judas didn't have time. However, an instatnt is a thousand lifetimes to God.
I hope and pray that as sinful as we all are and how at times we ourselves are guilty of crucifying our Lord that God did not and will not spare His mercy on any of us, not even Judas, not even me.
Posted 1 year ago #
"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of Him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born." (Matthew 26:24)
Sounds pretty grim.
Posted 1 year ago #
PTR,
the verse you put forth only goes to show the prophecy.
What I'm talking about is the Love and Mercy of God.
peace
the verse you put forth only goes to show the prophecy.
What I'm talking about is the Love and Mercy of God.
peace
Posted 1 year ago #
The word means he regretted what he had done.
It seems unlikely he reconciled with God because later he hung himself.
Also, it is recorded that 'he fell headlong and his bowls burst open' which was a standard type of description used to demonstrate that one died while under the curse of God.
Posted 1 year ago #
I think it is not clear about Judas' fate from the readings in the Scripture about his betrayal and actions afterwards. Did he truly repent because he was inspired by faith that Jesus was truly the Son of God or was his contrition based upon other motives. I do not know the answer to that. By taking his own life, it unfortunately did not allow him to make reparation for his sin.
I think the story of Judas is better understood when we look at the other apostles, especially Peter, who also betrayed Jesus perhaps to a lesser degree, but none-the-less, he turned away from Jesus. Like Judas, Peter also clearly realized his sin and he regretted it-"he wept bitterly". But here is what makes Peter and the other apostles different. There repentance was in a sense perfect in that they were inspired by faith and belif that Jesus is the Son of God and he would forgive them. They had the faith to accept the mercy of God and then they acted upon it. The rest of their lives were one of reparation and great works and eventual martyrdom.
Judas could have had the same if he only recognized and accepted in pure faith that Jesus, the Son of God, loved him so much that he would even forgive his betrayer. I suppose this is the lesson for all of us-we all betray him at times, but we know and believe that he will forgive us.
Posted 1 year ago #
Love is the answer here. He was a chosen 12, this accounts for a great deal. See here's the catch, the Gospels are from authors point of view and only certain things are written such as what St. John states, about if they wrote down everything Jesus did, there wouldn't be enough pages to hold them. Now in this verse (if you look at) brings out another point, if God decided to pardon Judas it's not written and kept from the other Apostles for a reason. That is because God shows mercy to whom He wills. Jesus states in the Gospels let not your lefthand know what the righthand is doing, such and such, plus you said, all the Apostles were scattered at Jesus trial, some wept, some lost faith like Thomas, some didn't know what to make of it. Jesus told them and not only Jesus, but the scriptures prophesied that Jesus would be sacrificed.
Peace
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
some lost faith like Thomas
I would say that Thomas did not lose faith, since there was no "faith" yet. I believe Thomas didn't understand or as you put it some didn't know what to make of it. Also, it may be more correct to state that he did not believe his brothers and sisters. Indeed, Thomas could have been the most courageous of the group since he was not with them, locked up and fearful, when Jesus had appeared the first time.
Posted 1 year ago #
Dear bhokuto, The guilt of betrayal for Judas Iscariot was for certain overwhelming. The causes of suicide are usually depression and lonliness. Judas did not have a friend in the world to share his grief with and he was depressed over the terrible deed he had committed. These symptoms lead a person to anguish of heart and mind that creates a certain kind of pressure that needs to be released or ceased. In Judas' mind, his pressure needed to cease in the form of hanging himself. One of my parish priests thinks Judas may be in heaven, although Jesus named Judas the son of perdition and said that Judas was destined for (damnation). When Jesus prayed for the Apostles, he said [to God] "I have saved them all except the one who was destined for damnation". This is certainly a point to ponder, whether Judas Iscariot was saved from the fires of hell. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
Judas was part of the Pharisees, he had friends in the Sanhedrin,
He thought of Jesus as the king of the Jews to restore former glory.
When Jesus was crucified, Judas realized what Jesus had been saying along. I let you think about it from here. The Heart has to be converted
and to be converted one must be contrite like a child.
peace
He thought of Jesus as the king of the Jews to restore former glory.
When Jesus was crucified, Judas realized what Jesus had been saying along. I let you think about it from here. The Heart has to be converted
and to be converted one must be contrite like a child.
peace
Posted 1 year ago #
David,
I would say that they had little faith, a loss of faith doesnt' necessarily mean, a total loss of faith, he just lost some faith. or his faith shrunk.
decrease in faith. disheartened. maybe some were depressed after being disheartened. You can definitely see that even though they were told by Jesus and the scriptures foretold of Jesus' sacrifice they felt He would somehow remain among them.
Peace
I would say that they had little faith, a loss of faith doesnt' necessarily mean, a total loss of faith, he just lost some faith. or his faith shrunk.
decrease in faith. disheartened. maybe some were depressed after being disheartened. You can definitely see that even though they were told by Jesus and the scriptures foretold of Jesus' sacrifice they felt He would somehow remain among them.
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
Bhikuto wrote
“God shows mercy to whom He wills.”
Life is tough.
Peter betrays Our Lord three times and end up as the rock on which the Church is built. Judas betrays our Lord, repents, yet is (apparently) damned.
Similarly Our Lady queries God’s plan for her and gets an explanation. Zachariah does the same thing and is struck dumb.
But now, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time, you will become mute, unable to speak, until the day these things occur.” (NRSV, Lk 1:20).
I often think Judas was set up. He was used so that Scripture might be fulfilled.
I do not understand God’s ways.
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
“Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me"
Posted 1 year ago #
I would say they did not have understanding and were afraid but I think it is unfair to write...like Thomas because Thomas was not with them would show that he had at least ventured out of the upper room and returned.
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokoto - "Judas realized what Jesus had been saying along"
What makes you think that? He could just have easly completely lost faith and instead have belived he had caused the death of an innocent man whom he had mistaken to be the messiah.
The scripture do not make it clear in context.
The chruch has never declared definitively what happened to him because there is great danger in attempting to judge the others.
"with the same measure you measure you too shall be judged".
It is enough to understand that the 'chruch' has been betrayed from within even on it's first day, but the God takes even the actions of the betrayers and defeats them by his mercy and Glory.
We should always be on Gaurd, but we should not fear.
I think attempting to figure out if judas is in heaven or in hell is :
1) trying to figure out something beyond our competence and tempting us to judge another
2) not useful for understanding the scriptures, because what is important is what was mean to be taught by the scriptures as written.
Posted 1 year ago #
Dear bhokuto, If Judas had friends in the Sanhedrin, I would hate to see what his enemies looked like. The Sanhedrin told Judas when he tried to return the blood money, "What is that to us"? meaning they would not help him nor were they considered his friends. Judas thought Jesus was a rebel who needed to be corrected by the Sanhedrin, he did not think Jesus was King of the Jews as Judas betrayed Jesus' cause. As Jesus said of Judas, "I saved them all except the one that was destined for damnation". Jesus said this in conversation with his Father in prayer. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
Dear Noel, You are correct. According to Christ, Judas was destined for damnation. Jesus called Judas the Son of Perdition. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
it's tough to say, we can read what is written, there again we read what is not written, to go beyond fine print. the Eternal Spirit of God sees beyond fine print, the fine print is a starting point. Life with God is beyond
the fine print. If you understand what I mean?!
One question: in heaven will you be reading fine print to make sure you're keeping the commandments? This is a no brainer.
Peace
the fine print. If you understand what I mean?!
One question: in heaven will you be reading fine print to make sure you're keeping the commandments? This is a no brainer.
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
See what I'm getting at is the Mercy of God. In the OT God was pretty straight forward, yet we read the strays of man, and we read Gods heart in many a prophets. We see a God calling out to His people.
The Heart of God.
Judas was selected beforehand to fulfill Christs Passion. He had to be one of the 12. He had to be inside. This was the design.
Why do architects use blueprints?
Peace
The Heart of God.
Judas was selected beforehand to fulfill Christs Passion. He had to be one of the 12. He had to be inside. This was the design.
Why do architects use blueprints?
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Pope John Paul the II rightly pointed out that the church has never infallibly declared that Judas was dammed. nor has it declared otherwise. It is better to try not to judge others , judging actions not persons is sufficient. beyond that though always remember hell is not a lonely place , many go there. because christ says'the path is narrow and the road to hell is wide'I'm not going to get into the percentage game because there are some things we just can't and probably shouldn't know.however I am sure their are two extremes that have been formally condemned by the church.
1) nearly everyone goes to hell
2) nearly everyone goes to heaven
beyond that you may believe whatever helps you with your faith, I would hold that where as there is hope , even for Judas, it is at best a fools hope. The Gospel writers would not have known the final dispensation of his soul, they certainly meant to indicate that what it did was extraordinary wrong.
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman,
to intellectual of a response.
Peace
to intellectual of a response.
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
Dear bhokuto, From the Vatican www.vatican.va:
SECOND STATION
Jesus, betrayed by Judas, is arrested
V/. We adore you, O Christ, and we bless you.
R/. Because by your holy cross you have redeemed the world
From the Gospel according to Luke 22:47-48
While he was still speaking, there came a crowd,
and the man called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them.
He drew near to Jesus to kiss him;
but Jesus said to him, "Judas, would you betray the Son of man with a kiss?"
MEDITATION
From the very first time he is named,
Judas is indicated as the one "who betrayed him" (Mt 10:4; Mk 3:19; Lk 6:13);
the tragic name of "traitor"
remains for ever linked to his memory.
How could he arrive at this point, one whom Jesus had chosen
to follow him so closely?
Did Judas let himself get carried away by an exasperated love for Jesus,
which became suspicion and resentment?
The kiss would lead us to believe so,
a gesture that shows love, but that became the gesture handing Jesus over to the crowd.
Or perhaps he was overcome by his disappointment with a Messiah
who rejected the political role of liberating Israel from foreign domination?
It would not take long for Judas to realize that his subtle blackmail
ended up in disaster.
For it was not the death of the Messiah that he desired,
but only that the Messiah be shaken up into taking on more resolute action.
And then: the futile regret for his gesture,
the refusal of the money of betrayal (Mt 27:4),
the giving in to despair.
when Jesus speaks to Judas as "the son of perdition",
he limits himself to recalling that thus the Scriptures will be fulfilled (Jn 17:12).
A mystery of iniquity that escapes us,
but that cannot overcome the mystery of mercy. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
Dear bhokuto, From the gospel of Saint Luke: Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, 2 was drawing near,
and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking a way to put him to death, for they were afraid of the people.
Then Satan entered into Judas, 3 the one surnamed Iscariot, who was counted among the Twelve,
and he went to the chief priests and temple guards to discuss a plan for handing him over to them.
They were pleased and agreed to pay him money.
He accepted their offer and sought a favorable opportunity to hand him over to them in the absence of a crowd.
In the Holy Love of God I am your brother and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
Dear bhokuto, From Matthew gospel:
And while they were eating, he said, "Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me." 11
Deeply distressed at this, they began to say to him one after another, "Surely it is not I, Lord?"
He said in reply, "He who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will betray me.
12 The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born."
13 Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" He answered, "You have said so."
In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
Royal,
I've read all that.
There are other 'things' which are not accounted in the Gospels which refers to Christ's love for Judas. There are saints who've kept secrets from those who have a hard time understanding. Such is the case.
Peace
I've read all that.
There are other 'things' which are not accounted in the Gospels which refers to Christ's love for Judas. There are saints who've kept secrets from those who have a hard time understanding. Such is the case.
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - careful with your private interpretations, if they lead to feeling like you 'know better then others' or somehow have 'special' knowledge they can become a hidden source of pride. It is better to give them up then to allow them to make you feel superior.
On the other hand, if they help you to truly feel loved by God , more power to you.
I'm not judging which is or is not the case with you, I only see that the interpretation you have of scripture , does not come directly from it, and therefore is private revelation. It may be true, it may not be, but it is important to know not to cling to such things so firmly as to allow them to cause conflict with others over what is not necessary for salvation. It is possible I say this only because of myself, because such things I must constantly be on guard against because of my own sins. I have no knowledge of yours.
In the love of Christ
Peace and all good be to you,
Posted 1 year ago #
Fishman
thanks,
I bring this up because it is part of salvific knowledge. To understand
Gods Love and Mercy for mankind. Repentance, contrition, true faith.
St. Paul is a good example as well. He persecuted the Church 'partook'
in beating, railing, killing Christ-ians. Yet God show Mercy to Paul.
Gods love is beyond comprehension.
Peace
thanks,
I bring this up because it is part of salvific knowledge. To understand
Gods Love and Mercy for mankind. Repentance, contrition, true faith.
St. Paul is a good example as well. He persecuted the Church 'partook'
in beating, railing, killing Christ-ians. Yet God show Mercy to Paul.
Gods love is beyond comprehension.
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
In this matter perhaps some insight can be gleaned from contrasting the way that Peter responded to personal failure and the way that Judas responded to personal failure.
Judas remained alone - isolated from Jesus. He essentially condemned himself and personally chose his own form of punishment and death. He clearly did not care what happened in this world or the next world when he elected to kill himself. In his mind his sin was too grave to warrant any redemption and presented himself to his own judgement as his own sacrifice and punishment for his sin. Given the enormity of Jesus' perfect sacrifice Judas' sacrifice could never be a pleasing sacrifice to God and would not be accepted. It in fact appears to be false worship to the false god of self.
Peter, although he denied Jesus three times remained near Jesus throughout the ordeal and in the company of other of the disciples. He was also present near the time of the resurrection. He never truly abandoned his hope and trust in Jesus and his teaching. Peter later died suffering terribly by being crucified by God's enemies.
Jim
Posted 1 year ago #
Jim,
Thanks
Not everyone repsonds the same way. God knows each tree. Each person is not the same tree. A Maple is not an Oak.
Judas repented. This is what God says about repentance, 'broken and contrite heart'. Hanging himself was prophesied in scriptures.
First off you have to understand Judas' preconceived ideas.
He thought The Messiah 'Christ' came to restore Israel to it's former glory. After He handed over Jesus to the Sanhedrin, and watched in horror of Jesus' presecution and death, Judas then had a change of Heart. He thought to himself I killed and 'Innocent' man, I was wrong
God please forgive me, but He felt he was beyond redemption so he went to the grave thinking he could not be forgiven.
Jesus says in Matthew Beattitudes, All manner of sin shall be forgiven --- great amount of Mercy overlooking everything, except blaspheme against the Holy Ghost or the Eternal Spirit. The Spirit is some classificaition with God that at this time I do not understand, but for Jesus to say this it is a biggy. No small time thing, it is not like killing someone. Jesus also said you will be forgiven for blaspheme against Himself and the Father. In a way, Judas blasphemed Jesus by handing Him over to be put to death. Judas did not kill Jesus, he betrayed Him is what the scriptures say.
The scriptures say woe to that man by whom He is betrayed it was better for him to be not born. But, Jesus loved All His disciples not one to two. It is a hard thing to imagine, that for someone whom you love, to have them betray you to a point of death or even to point of having
taken something from you, or did something harmful. Yet still love them.
There was a young girl who was cannonized a saint, she was killed by boy a bit older than she was, she forgave him for killing her. I forgot her name but I saw the story on her on EWTN. Her killer consequently, converted. This guy suffered the rest of his life. Expitiation.
Now I pose a question:
Taking these two persons and looking at the similarities what can we
compare and study?
1 Jesus was pure and holy man. (I'm looking at the Man side of Jesus, he being a perfect man was a Saint. He is the supreme Saint of many saints according to what Man was destined for from the beginning of creation)
2 The saintly girl from the story was pure and holy, how could she forgive the guy for killing her?
3 they both were 'betrayed' to have their lives extinguished.
She was betrayed in a sense that is not common she did nothing wrong.
Jesus was betrayed because He opposed Israels teachers.
4 Jesus was born for to die, Jesus tells His disciples countless times, yet only a few times it is recorded in scripture.
5 She was born to die someday.
Peace
Thanks
Not everyone repsonds the same way. God knows each tree. Each person is not the same tree. A Maple is not an Oak.
Judas repented. This is what God says about repentance, 'broken and contrite heart'. Hanging himself was prophesied in scriptures.
First off you have to understand Judas' preconceived ideas.
He thought The Messiah 'Christ' came to restore Israel to it's former glory. After He handed over Jesus to the Sanhedrin, and watched in horror of Jesus' presecution and death, Judas then had a change of Heart. He thought to himself I killed and 'Innocent' man, I was wrong
God please forgive me, but He felt he was beyond redemption so he went to the grave thinking he could not be forgiven.
Jesus says in Matthew Beattitudes, All manner of sin shall be forgiven --- great amount of Mercy overlooking everything, except blaspheme against the Holy Ghost or the Eternal Spirit. The Spirit is some classificaition with God that at this time I do not understand, but for Jesus to say this it is a biggy. No small time thing, it is not like killing someone. Jesus also said you will be forgiven for blaspheme against Himself and the Father. In a way, Judas blasphemed Jesus by handing Him over to be put to death. Judas did not kill Jesus, he betrayed Him is what the scriptures say.
The scriptures say woe to that man by whom He is betrayed it was better for him to be not born. But, Jesus loved All His disciples not one to two. It is a hard thing to imagine, that for someone whom you love, to have them betray you to a point of death or even to point of having
taken something from you, or did something harmful. Yet still love them.
There was a young girl who was cannonized a saint, she was killed by boy a bit older than she was, she forgave him for killing her. I forgot her name but I saw the story on her on EWTN. Her killer consequently, converted. This guy suffered the rest of his life. Expitiation.
Now I pose a question:
Taking these two persons and looking at the similarities what can we
compare and study?
1 Jesus was pure and holy man. (I'm looking at the Man side of Jesus, he being a perfect man was a Saint. He is the supreme Saint of many saints according to what Man was destined for from the beginning of creation)
2 The saintly girl from the story was pure and holy, how could she forgive the guy for killing her?
3 they both were 'betrayed' to have their lives extinguished.
She was betrayed in a sense that is not common she did nothing wrong.
Jesus was betrayed because He opposed Israels teachers.
4 Jesus was born for to die, Jesus tells His disciples countless times, yet only a few times it is recorded in scripture.
5 She was born to die someday.
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
Bhokuto
Are you thinking of Maria Goretti? (http://www.mariagoretti.org/mariabio.htm)
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 1 year ago #
Noel,
Yes, that's her.
Thanks
Peace
Yes, that's her.
Thanks
Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
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