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altruistic or suicidal?

(63 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by David T Garrison
  • Latest reply from David T Garrison

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David T Garrison - Inactive

Fact - Falling on a live, fragmentary grenade will more than likely end one's own life while greatly reducing the risk of injury or death to others. If you wish to contest this, please back it up with something other than " go to the D.O.D."

Fact - It is impossible to know a person's heart at the time.

Most who undertake this action are aware of the consequences as they have {especially if they are in the military} seen a grenade explode.

Suicide is defined as the act of taking one's own life voluntarilly and intentionally.

The Church states: Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.

Since most know the action has the greatest potential to end their life, and they do it voluntarily and intentionally, is it, cut and dry, suicide?

Do we tend to gravitate towards a feeling of despair and helplessness when we consider what suicide means?

Since we, as Catholics, understand that "there is no greater love than to lay down your life for another",  do we see the ultimate sacrifice of Christ in the action of falling on the grenade, breaking someone's fall, pushing another away from oncoming traffic, using one's body as a shield against a weapon of any kind, etc.,etc?

Literally, I think it is suicide to fall on a grenade.

I believe, if done with purity of heart, it is an act of love, which contradicts despair and hopelessness.

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

I posted this to break out some potential points of agreement and isolate it from the topic in which it first popped its ugly head...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
I think you are confusing the definition of what suicidal means when you state "Literally, I think it is suicide to fall on a grenade."

 

 suicide is always a sin because it is the unlawful taking of ones one life.

 

 As I have pointed out elsewhere, throwing ones self on a grenade ( and in perhaps to a lesser extent the other scenarios you present) are not sinful acts of they are acts of kindness to others.

 

 

In the case of a grenade if you are close enough to jump on the grenade you are highly unlikely to avoid being killed by in anyway , ( 2 to 7 sec fuse assumed). how far can you run in 1 sec?

 

 There simply is not enough time to intentionally do anything really , what you have is a 'gut reaction' a impulse and that is about it.

  The decisions being made are simply 'protect' or 'freeze' and their can't be time for more thought then that. 

 

 

In as much as these people choose to protect others they are acting heroically.  In as much as they had no intention of taking their own life they are not committing suicide.

  I suppose it is possible, if you had a depressed soldier who was already looking for ways to take his own life that they might see an opportunity in a grenade , but I would suspect that is the rare case , not the norm.

 

  
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

maybe you didn't read the whole post?

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

no i think i read it :

"Since we, as Catholics, understand that "there is no greater love than to lay down your life for another",  do we see the ultimate sacrifice of Christ in the action of falling on the grenade, breaking someone's fall, pushing another away from oncoming traffic, using one's body as a shield against a weapon of any kind, etc.,etc?

Literally, I think it is suicide to fall on a grenade.

I believe, if done with purity of heart, it is an act of love, which contradicts despair and hopelessness."

 

I was trying to understand what you meant with the sentence

"Literally, I think it is suicide to fall on a grenade. "

It seems to me that

"Literally, I think do not thik it is suicide to fall on a grenade. "

would be more consitent with the rest of the post or am I misunderstanding something

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

definition of suicide: the act of taking one's own life voluntarilly and intentionally

what you may have missed:

Do we tend to gravitate towards a feeling of despair and helplessness when we consider what suicide means?

My position remains unchanged.

I believe, if done with purity of heart, it is an act of love, which contradicts despair and hopelessness.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, So you say the soldier fell on the grenade as an act of charity to his buddies? So why wont you answer my question about his family. Certainly you are not saying this is an act of charity toward his family? Remember that when the soldier is blown up by the grenade, his children no longer have a father and his wife no longer has a husband and his father no longer has a son and his mother no longer has a son and his brother no longer has a brother and his sister no longer has a brother. So where is the charity this soldier shows his family, by returning from war safe and sound? Any soldier going to war accepts death before he goes as a possibility so where is the valor in going to your grave with no consideration for your family. How do you think you make them feel when you deliberately dismiss their love for you in exchange for some GI you met on the battlefield? You continue to miss this point and so far have refused to acknowledge this aspect of the conscious decision to fall or not to fall on the grenade. Remember also that being hit by grenade fragments does not guarantee death, so falling on the grenade does not guarantee that your buddies are saved, they may not have even came close to dying had they been hit by fragment. It is entirely supposition and gambling with your life to say that you must fall on the grenade. There is no way anyone can say that if they do not fall on the grenade that someone will die. Many men have survived grenade fragments, I for one have survived grenade fragments in an attack at Dong Ba Thin, Vietnam 1972. Pope John Paul 11 was shot directly in the chest and lived, he said he was saved by the Blessed Mother of Christ. Will you please address the question of how does the family and loved ones feel about the supposed falling on grenade to save his buddies routine? My sister and her children say their father committed suicide and have mourned him since he fell on a grenade 25 years ago. They do not consider him a hero but a crazed man who took his own life and forsook his wife and children. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Remember that when the soldier is blown up by the grenade, his children no longer have a father and his wife no longer has a husband and his father no longer has a son and his mother no longer has a son and his brother no longer has a brother and his sister no longer has a brother. Really, have you ever heard, I am the God of Abraham, and Of Isaac and of Jacob. I am the God of the living not the dead."

 

Will you please address the question of how does the family and loved ones feel about the supposed falling on grenade to save his buddies routine? My sister and her children say their father committed suicide and have mourned him since he fell on a grenade 25 years ago. They do not consider him a hero but a crazed man who took his own life and forsook his wife and children. It has been addressed. I pity them for their lack of forgiveness and refusal to be comforted by God.

Some would argue that they have a stronger ally than before.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, The entire scientific community states that altruistic behavior is closely associated with suicidal behavior. Read these and weep:
Science & Theology News - Altruism at heart of suicide attacks ...
Hence, the suicide act appears a glaring example of altruistic behavior.”
Mike Martin is a freelance science and technology writer. ...
www.stnews.org
"Fictive Kin" and Suicide Terrorism -- Qirko; and Atran 304 (5667 ...
Organizations that recruit and train suicide terrorists purposefully manipulate
... fitness calculations related to altruistic behavior in many species, ...
www.sciencemag.org
Letter to the Editor
suicide as “self-sacrifice”, with a clear description. of what is in essence
altruistic behavior. cedence in the typology of egotistical and altruis- ...
www.atypon-link.com
Cell suicide theory could provide new hope for fighting antibiotic ...
A surprising new theory suggests that some bacterial cells act as “suicide bombers”
in cell communities, with the altruistic intention of dying for the ...
app1.unmc.edu
On indirect reciprocity: the distinction between reciprocity and ...
... and a comment on suicide terrorism from American Journal of Economics and ...
Apparent altruistic behavior can instead be explained by kin selection, ...
findarticles.com
Dr. Sanity: Narcissistic Rage and Awe
Hence, the suicide act appears a glaring example of altruistic behavior.”
Let's evaluate this theory from a psychological perspective. ...
drsanity.blogspot.com
Oxford University Press: Altruism and Altruistic Love: Stephen G. Post
Their integrative dialogue illustrates that altruistic behavior is a significant
... A moving memoir of a young man's brush with suicide, filled with expert ...
www.oup.com
JSTOR: Suicide and Self-Damaging Behavior: A Sociobiological ...
But if the altruistic suicide is not fit or aged, then his or her death does ...
book for many of the more exotic as- pects of self-destructive behavior. ...
links.jstor.org
"Fictive Kin" and Suicide Terrorism -- Qirko; and Atran 304 (5667 ...
Only if commitment to suicide occurs in the context of kin and ... desiring to
maintain and reinforce nonkin altruistic behavior among their members should ...
intl.sciencemag.org
IngentaConnect altruism and fatalism: the characteristics of ...
altruism and fatalism: the characteristics of palestinian suicide terrorists.
Authors: Pedahzur A.1; Perliger A.1; Weinberg L.2. Source: Deviant Behavior...
www.ingentaconnect.com
In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear David T Garrison, You pity wife and the children of the suicidal grenade manic yet you love the buddies that were saved from the fragments?

Your blatant disregard for family David is frightening to say the least.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, Here is some more on altruism and suicide which are closely linked in psychological studies:

Suicide (book)

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Suicide was one of the groundbreaking books in the field of sociology. Written by French sociologist Émile Durkheim and published in 1897 it was a case study of suicide, a publication unique for its time which provided an example of what the sociological monograph should look like.

Most contemporary studies of suicide focused on individual characteristics. Durkheim studied connections between individuals and society. He believed that if he could show how what is seen as the most individual act is actually the result of the social world, he would show the usefulness of sociology and his rules of the sociological method. In this book Durkheim developed the concept of anomie. He explores the differing suicide rates among Protestants and Catholics, explaining that stronger social control among Catholics results in lower suicide rates. According to Durkheim, people have a certain level of attachment to their groups, which he calls social integration. Abnormally high or low levels of social integration may result in increased suicide rates; low levels have this effect because low social integration results in disorganized society, causing people to turn to suicide as a last resort, while high levels cause people to kill themselves to avoid becoming burdens on society. This work has influenced proponents of control theory, and is often mentioned as a classic sociological study.

Durkheim found out that:

  • Suicide rates are higher for those widowed, single and divorced than married.
  • Suicide rates are higher for people without children than with children.
  • Suicide rates are higher among Protestants than Catholics.

Reasons for these differing suicide rates include:

  • Most importantly, the coroner's interpretation of the death in question. Due to slight differences between Protestants and Catholics—specifically because suicide is a mortal sin for Catholics—the coroner in a Catholic country is less likely to record the death as a suicide. Take into account that if no suicide note is left, it is all down to the coroner's interpretation.
  • Catholic countries tend to be slightly more integrated than Protestant, with closer family ties. The province of Québec, in Canada, is a dramatic paradox to this affirmation. While officially Catholic, it has a suicide rate per capita, especially amongst its youth, that is alarming, which is attributed to the rapid downfall of the actual communal practice of religion. Similarly, people who are married and/or have children are less likely to suicide. Simply put, they have more to live for.

According to Durkheim, Catholic society has normal levels of integration while Protestant society has low levels. Durkheim thus defined suicide as the act of severing social relationships and concluded that suicide may be caused by weak social bonds. Durkheim believed that the social bond is composed of two factors, which are social integration (attachment to other individuals within society) and social regulation (attachment to society's norms). He believed that suicide rates may increase when extremities in these factors occur.

He differentiated between four types of suicide:

  • Egoistic suicide: Egoism is a state in which the ties attaching the individual to others in the society are weak. Since the individual is only weakly integrated into the society, ending his or her own life will have little impact on the rest of the society. In other words, there are few social ties to keep the individual from taking his or her own life. This Durkheim saw as the cause of suicide among divorced men.
  • Altruistic suicide: Altruism is a state opposite to egoism, in which the individual is extremely attached to the society and thus has no life of his or her own. Individuals who commit suicide based on altruism die because they believe that their death can bring about a benefit to the society. In other words, when an individual is too heavily integrated into the society, he or she will commit suicide regardless of his or her own hesitation if the society's norms ask for the person's death. Durkheim saw this as occurring in two different ways:
    • Where people saw themselves as worthless or a burden upon society and would therefore commit suicide. He saw this as happening in ancient or 'primitive' societies, but also in highly traditionalized army regiments, such as imperial or elite guards, in contemporary society
    • Where people saw the social world as meaningless and would sacrifice themselves for a greater ideal. Durkheim saw this as happening in 'Eastern' religions, such as the Sati in Hinduism. Some contemporary sociologists have used this analysis to explain Kamikaze pilots and the cult of the suicide bomber
  • Anomic suicide: Anomie is a state in which there is weak social regulation between the society's norms and the individual, most often brought on by dramatic changes in economic and/or social circumstances. This type of suicide happens when the social norms and laws governing the society do not correspond with the life goals of the individual. Since the individual does not identify with the norms of the society, suicide seems to be a way to escape them. Durkheim saw this as the explanation for Protestants committing suicide.
  • Fatalistic suicide: Fatalism is a state opposite to anomie in which social regulation is completely instilled in the individual; there is no hope of change against the oppressive discipline of the society. The only way for the individual to be released from this state is to commit suicide. Durkheim saw this as the reason for slaves committing suicide in antiquity, but saw it as having little relevance in modern society 
  •  In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, Maybe you didnt read the whole post? Here is more on pschological egoism and altruism:Altruism in psychology and sociology

If one performs an act beneficial to others with a view to gaining some personal benefit, then it isn't an altruistically motivated act. There are several different perspectives on how "benefit" (or "interest") should be defined. A material gain (for example, money, a physical reward, etc.) is clearly a form of benefit, while others identify and include both material and immaterial gains (affection, respect, happiness, satisfaction etc.) as being philosophically identical benefits.

According to psychological egoism, while people can exhibit altruistic behavior, they cannot have altruistic motivations. Psychological egoists would say that while they might very well spend their lives benefitting others with no material benefit (or a material net loss) to themselves, their most basic motive for doing so is always to further their own interests. For example, it would be alleged that the foundational motive behind a person acting this way is to advance their own psychological well-being ("good feelings"). Critics of this theory often reject it on the grounds that it's non-falsifiable; in other words, it is impossible to prove or disprove because immaterial gains such as a "good feelings" cannot be measured or proven to exist in all people performing altruistic acts. Psychological egoism has also been accused of using circular logic: "If a person willingly performs an act, that means he derives personal enjoyment from it; therefore, people only perform acts that give them personal enjoyment". This particular statement is circular because its conclusion is identical to its hypothesis (it assumes that people only perform acts that give them personal enjoyment, and concludes that people only perform acts that give them personal enjoyment).

In common parlance, altruism usually means helping another person without expecting material reward from that or other persons, although it may well entail the "internal" benefit of a "good feeling," sense of satisfaction, self-esteem, fulfillment of duty (whether imposed by a religion or ideology or simply one's conscience), or the like. In this way one need not speculate on the motives of the altruist in question.

Humans are not exclusively altruistic towards family members, previous co-operators or potential future allies, but can be altruistic towards people they don't know and will never meet. For example, some humans donate to international charities and volunteer their time to help society's less fortunate. It can however be argued that an individual would contribute to a charity to gain respect or stature within his/her own community.

It strains plausibility to claim that these altruistic deeds are done in the hope of a return favor. The game theory analysis of this 'just in case' strategy, where the principle would be 'always help everyone in case you need to pull in a favor in return', is a decidedly non-optimal strategy, where the net expenditure of effort (tit) is far greater than the net profit when it occasionally pays off (tat).

According to some, it is difficult to believe that these behaviors are solely explained as indirect selfish rationality, be it conscious or sub-conscious. Mathematical formulations of kin selection, along the lines of the prisoner's dilemma, are helpful as far as they go; but what a game-theoretic explanation glosses over is the fact that altruistic behavior can be attributed to that apparently mysterious phenomenon, the conscience. One recent suggestion, proposed by the philosopher Daniel Dennett, was initially developed when considering the problem of so-called 'free riders' in the tragedy of the commons, a larger-scale version of the prisoner's dilemma.

In game theory terms, a free rider is an agent who draws benefits from a co-operative society without contributing. In a one-to-one situation, free riding can easily be discouraged by a tit-for-tat strategy. But in a larger-scale society, where contributions and benefits are pooled and shared, they can be incredibly difficult to shake off.

Imagine an elementary society of co-operative organisms. Co-operative agents interact with each other, each contributing resources and each drawing on the common good. Now imagine a rogue free rider, an agent who draws a favor ("you scratch my back") and later refuses to return it. The problem is that free riding is always going to be beneficial to individuals at cost to society. How can well-behaved co-operative agents avoid being cheated? Over many generations, one obvious solution is for co-operators to evolve the ability to spot potential free riders in advance and refuse to enter into reciprocal arrangements with them. Then, the canonical free rider response is to evolve a more convincing disguise, fooling co-operators into co-operating after all. This can lead to an evolutionary arms races, with ever-more-sophisticated disguises and ever-more-sophisticated detectors.

In this evolutionary arms race, how best might one convince comrades that one really is a genuine co-operator, not a free rider in disguise? One answer is by actually making oneself a genuine co-operator, by erecting psychological barriers to breaking promises, and by advertising this fact to everyone else. In other words, a good solution is for organisms to evolve things that everyone knows will force them to be co-operators - and to make it obvious that they've evolved these things. So evolution will produce organisms who are sincerely moral and who wear their hearts on their sleeves; in short, evolution will give rise to the phenomenon of conscience.

This theory, combined with ideas of kin selection and the one-to-one sharing of benefits, may explain how a blind and fundamentally selfish process can produce a genuinely non-cynical form of altruism that gives rise to the human conscience.

Critics of such technical game theory analysis point out that it appears to forget that human beings are rational and emotional. To presume an analysis of human behaviour without including human rationale or emotion is necessarily unrealistically narrow, and treats human beings as if they are mere machines, sometimes called Homo economicus. Another objection is that often people donate anonymously, so that it is impossible to determine if they really did the altruistic act.

Beginning with an understanding that rational human beings benefit from living in a benign universe, logically it follows that particular human beings may gain substantial emotional satisfaction from acts which they perceive to make the world a better place. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear David T Garrison, Taken from the website www.healthyplace.com from Dr. Leland Heller: concerning suicide. *The exception is when an individual chooses to die because one’s life isn’t as important as something the individual believes in. This includes both heroism and a belief system that the individual’s life isn’t important. There are many examples including movies (Armageddon), books (A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens), Japanese kamikaze pilots, and a soldier falling on a grenade to protect his comrades.

Read and weep David, this is not a simplified subject. There is much to consider. Even though the act is considered by some to be heroism, it is considered by others to be suicide. There is no concensus as you self proclaim, David. You are looking for strength in numbers and there is none to be had.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

judged by your own words again, so sad

 

The exception is when an individual chooses to die because one’s life isn’t as important as something the individual believes in.This includes both heroism and a belief system that the individual’s life isn’t important.

  There are many examples including movies (Armageddon), books (A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens), Japanese kamikaze pilots, and a soldier falling on a grenade to protect his comrades.

and you question people's reading comprehension...

and by the way wikipedia stinks as a source...

now, what is the exception Dr Heller is referring to...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, As you can see from this article, falling on a grenade by a soldier affects his family depressively for life according to psychologist: 
What Happens to People Who Commit Suicide

by Kevin Williams

reprinted with the author's permission

NDEs suggest the quality of our lives after death is not necessarily determined by how we died, but by how we lived. Unfortunately, life can be extremely difficult at times - so difficult that many people choose to end their own lives.

This raises some important questions that need to be answered. Is suicide justifiable if a person is terminally ill and suffering unnecessarily? Should we help those who are suffering from a terminal illness die with dignity if they choose to do so? Don't physicians often extend a terminal patient's suffering rather than extend their quality of life? Isn't it a basic human right to be able to control one's own death and destiny as one sees fit? Is falling on a grenade to save the lives of others an act of suicide? Is constantly feeding a junk food habit an act of suicide? Wasn't Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem an act of suicide due to the fact he knew this action would result in his death? If it is our choice to be born, as many NDEs suggest, isn't this choice an act of suicide considering the choice results in our deaths?

I personally believe the answer to all these questions is yes. Although suicide may be justifiable in some cases, it does not give us the right to hurt other people by doing it. A suicide can leave a gigantic hole in a family - one that can never again be filled. The emotional damage inflicted on families by suicide is often the real tragedy. It has been said a suicide dies only once, but those left behind die a thousand deaths trying to understand why. NDEs reveal there are serious karmic penalties for hurting others. However, not all suicides result in hurting others, nor do all suicides have negative consequences.

While there are documented accounts of very beautiful NDEs resulting from suicide, there are also hellish accounts. This suggests the act of suicide itself is not a factor in determining whether a person has a beautiful NDE or a hellish NDE. However, it is possible for a hellish spiritual condition already existing within a person to be carried over and continue after death. Many suicides happen by people already experiencing a hell on earth for one reason or another. In this respect, death does not remove a pre-existing hellish spiritual condition unless the brain caused this condition. Many people who commit suicide are mentally ill. Because mental illness is a physical disorder of the brain, the mental illness ends with brain death and does not continue after death. This is true because people born blind have gained their sight during an NDE. Other handicaps have reportedly been removed from experiencers upon death.

Religious leaders sometimes warn people that suicide is an unforgivable sin leading to eternal damnation in hell. This is not what the NDE reveals. NDEs do describe life as being an inescapable learning experience. Suicide has the ability to postpone this learning experience from being completed. NDEs describe hell as being a temporary spiritual condition rather than a permanent place of torture.

Dr. George Ritchie learned during his NDE what happens to some people who commit suicide. According to Ritchie, the quality of life a person initially finds after suicide is influenced by their motive for committing it. He classifies suicide in the following three ways.

(A) The first classification are those who kill themselves in order to hurt someone, get revenge, or to kill themselves out of hatred for someone else. According to Ritchie, these people haunt the living by being aware of every horrible consequence their suicide had on others.

(B) The second classification are those who, because of mental illness, confusion, or a terminal illness, take their own life. Ritchie states these people are allowed many opportunities from God to grow in love just as any other person would who had not committed suicide. In other words, there are no negative consequences for them.

(C) The third classification are those who kill themselves from drug, alcohol, or any other addiction. According to Ritchie, these people can become stuck in limbo, trying in vain to satisfy their addiction until eventually something frees them. This condition is often called an earthbound condition.

NDEs reveal there is no condemnation from God for our actions. The problem many suicides face after death is the difficulty of forgiving themselves for the horror they put people through by taking their own life. One remedy for helping a suicide cope with this predicament comes from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, an ancient Buddhist book of the afterlife. The Book of the Dead is one of the oldest books on earth documenting NDEs. In my view, this source should be given great respect.

The Book of the Dead mentions people who succeed in committing suicide and become imprisoned in the experience of their suicide. Accordingly, they can be freed from this condition through the prayers of the living and by them imagining streams of light pouring on them. Such actions free the person from the pain and confusion of their suicide. The Book of the Dead also mentions that people have no choice but to follow any negative karma resulting from their suicide.

NDEs report people choosing their own destiny in life before they are born. While this may be true, it may also be true that we change this destiny by committing suicide. This is assuming nobody is predestined to commit suicide. NDEs reveal a perfect universal plan being worked out by God. Perhaps this perfect plan is not thwarted by suicide. There is no reason to believe it is. But if a person cuts short their destined time for life because of problems coping, these problems may not necessarily go away. These problems may also be complicated by the added burden of knowing the full horrible consequences of their action on others.

People who are thinking of killing themselves can learn a great deal from NDEs. Some NDEs suggest there may be nothing worse than rejecting God's gift of life, thereby destroying an opportunity for spiritual advancement. Not only that, some experiencers have observed suicides existing in an earthbound condition of temporarily being slaves to every consequence of their act of suicide. Such souls have been observed hounding and hovering around living family members and friends, trying in vain to seek forgiveness. Some of them have been observed existing in a grayish fog and shuffling around slowly with their heads down. Perhaps these earthbound souls become freed from this condition when their natural destined time for death occurs. This condition is very likely only temporary. Some experiencers have even observed such souls being helped in the afterlife.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear David T Garrison, These articles prove that the exception is made only because military command has to account for the lives of soldiers and when the miltary wants to glorify their agressions, they call it heroism. Everyone else who has any sanity left in their hearts calls it suicide.

 You must have been one hell-raiser in the military. I suppose when you got your weapon you started to drool all over it and pet it. Did you keep yours nice and shiny for those special occasions when you got to shoot someone to death?

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

actually, they issued me an M16A2 rifle and 7.62 rounds, oh well

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

I hope you're reading this non sequitur material you are posting with wonton disregard cause I doubt anyone else is. Sad, truly. Pathetic, mostly.

Your sister and her children feel their husband and father committed suicide. There has to have been more cases of this phenomenon. Document them and show us how many of the families believe their loved one committed suicide. We need more than one case study. 

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, The cowards way out, falling on a grenade:

Suicide | Introduction

In May 1996, the U.S. Navy’s top admiral, Jeremy “Mike” Boorda, committed suicide when he learned that Newsweek magazine wanted to question him about the legitimacy of two of his medals. Earlier in his career, Boorda had worn “V” pins (for valor) on two medals, indicating that he had served under fire during the Vietnam War. Although Boorda served in the Vietnam theater, his medal citations did not authorize him to wear the “V” pins. Boorda stopped wearing the pins about a year before his death when a friend pointed out that he was not entitled to wear them. According to Boorda’s suicide note, wearing the pins was an honest mistake.

Much of the nation was shocked over Boorda’s suicide; many felt it was an irrational overreaction to a minor mistake that had been corrected.Yet others—especially those who have served in the military—believed his suicide was the honorable way out of a potential scandal. Peter J. Boyer of the New Yorker editorialized that Boorda died “a warrior’s death” because he feared the Newsweek exposé would bring dishonor on the navy in which he had served for forty years.

Choosing death before dishonor is seen by some philosophers and ethicists as a rational reason to commit suicide. According to these experts, committing suicide can be a rational, morally permissible, and sometimes even obligatory act. Victor Cosculluela, author of The Ethics of Suicide, contends that suicide is rational and permissible if it serves as an expression of one’s deepest values or as an escape from an unbearable existence. Suicide is obligatory, he continues, if it will protect others from death or suffering, such as a soldier falling on a grenade or a pilot crashing a disabled plane into a hill to avoid a field full of children.

Many health care professionals agree that suicide can be a rational decision if certain conditions are met. A 1995 study by James L.Werth and Debra C. Cobia found that 88 percent of two hundred psychologists they surveyed supported the concept of rational suicide if the person considering suicide has a terminal illness, is in severe physical or psychological pain, or is experiencing an unacceptable quality of life and freely chooses to die. The researchers also stipulate that in order for a decision to commit suicide to be considered rational, the individual must have met with a mental health professional, weighed all the alternatives, considered how the act would affect others, and consulted with friends, family members, and clergy.

But other health care professionals believe that suicide can never be a rational choice. Leon R. Kass, an ethicist, physician, and outspoken critic of the right-to-die movement, argues that the determination to kill oneself is often made in response to feelings of guilt, fear, despair, or rejection. Suicide in these situations may be understandable and even forgivable, he asserts, but it is still an irrational and emotional response. Furthermore, because death is unimaginable, Kass contends, one cannot accurately judge whether death would be preferable to life. Therefore, he concludes, to choose death cannot possibly be a rational decision:

Do we know what we are talking about when we claim that someone can rationally choose nonbeing or nothingness? How can poor reason even contemplate nothingness, much less accurately calculate its merits as compared with continued existence?

Author Joyce Carol Oates agrees: “Rationally one cannot ‘choose’ Death because Death is an unknown experience, and perhaps it isn’t even an ‘experience’—perhaps it is simply nothing; and one cannot imagine nothing.” Oates and Kass assert that the merits of other actions can be imagined because it is possible to discuss them with people who have experienced them; death, however, is totally unknowable.

Others contend that choosing death as an escape from life’s troubles is cowardly and selfish. For example, some maintain that Boorda’s suicide was a cowardly act because he did not consider how his action would affect his wife, his children, and his reputation. Pat Smith, who wrote a letter to Newsweek, asks,

What is honorable, manly or brave about shooting yourself rather than taking the heat for your own deliberate actions? What regard did he show for his wife and children, wounding their hearts with his death?

Others concur, arguing that Boorda’s suicide and the circumstances surrounding it were more dishonorable than the act of wearing medals he did not deserve.

Whether Boorda’s decision to commit suicide was rational and honorable or cowardly and irrational, his death was just one of an estimated thirty-one thousand suicides in 1996. As the number of suicides continues to increase each year, society struggles to understand and respond to this troubling trend. The authors in Suicide: Opposing Viewpoints examine ethical and legal issues as well as arguments concerning the cause and prevention of suicide in the following chapters: Is Suicide an Individual Right? What Are the Causes of Teen Suicide? Should Assisted Suicide Be Legal? How Can Suicide Be Prevented? The contributors to these chapters shed light on the emotional and sensitive issues involved in the national discussion on suicide.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

or was it an M16A1 rifle with 5.56 rounds, ahh what's the diff - I was a killing machine. Let me tell you this, it wasn't easy. 52 no 53 confirmed kills and these weren't domestic flies either these were desert flies, some of the meanest. Would chew their leg off to get free of the glue paper...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear David T Garrison, How about U of Stanford-good enough for you? :

Suicide

First published Tue 18 May, 2004

Suicide is an enigmatic and disconcerting phenomenon. Because of others' inability to directly occupy the mental world of the suicidal, suicide appears to elude easy explanation. This inexplicability is stunningly captured by Jeffrey Eugenides in his novel The Virgin Suicides. In the novel, the narrator describes the reactions of several teenaged boys to the suicides of five sisters. The boys keep a collection of the dead girls' belongings, repeatedly sifting through them in a vain attempt to understand their deaths.

In the end we had the pieces of the puzzle, but no matter how we put them together, gaps remained, oddly shaped emptinesses mapped by what surrounded them, like countries we couldn't name. (Eugenides 1993, 246)

Undoubtedly, the challenge of simply fathoming suicide accounts for the vast array of attitudes toward suicide found in the history of Western civilization: bafflement, dismissal, heroic glorification, sympathy, anger, moral or religious condemnation. Suicide is now an object of multidisciplinary scientific study, with sociology, anthropology, psychology, and psychiatry each providing important insights into suicide. Particularly promising are the significant advances being made in our scientific understanding of the neurological basis of suicidal behavior (Stoff and Mann 1997) and the mental conditions associated with it. Nonetheless, certain questions about suicide seem to fall at least partially outside the domain of science, and indeed, suicide has been a focus of philosophical examination in the West since at least the time of Plato. For philosophers, suicide raises a host of conceptual, theological, moral, and psychological questions. Among these questions are: What makes a person's behavior suicidal? What motivates such behavior? Is suicide morally permissible, or even morally required in some extraordinary circumstances? Is suicidal behavior rational? This article will examine the main currents of historical and contemporary philosophical thought surrounding these questions.


    1. Characterizing Suicide

    Surprisingly, philosophical difficulties emerge when we even attempt to characterize suicide precisely, and attempts to do so introduce intricate issues about how to describe and explain human action. In particular, identifying a set of necessary and sufficient conditions for suicide that fits well with our typical usage of the term is especially challenging. A further challenge is that because suicide is strongly colored by negative emotional or moral connotations, efforts to distinguish suicidal behavior from other behavior often clandestinely import moral judgments about the aims or moral worth of such behavior. That is, views about the nature of suicide often incorporate, sometimes unknowingly, views about the prudential or moral justifiability of suicide and are therefore not value-neutral descriptions of suicide. Definitions of suicide are "sometimes dependent on prior judgments about its justifiability." (Lebacqz & Englehardt 1980, 701.) Theorists about suicide often fail to divorce questions about whether an act was suicide from whether its motives were admirable or odious. Hitler, most people contend, was clearly a suicide, but Socrates and Jesus were not. (Though on Socrates, see Frey 1978) Suicide still carries a strongly negative subtext, and on the whole, we exhibit a greater willingness to categorize self-killings intended to avoid one's just deserts as suicides than self-killings intended to benefit others (Beauchamp & Childress 1983, 93-94.) Some go so far as to deny the possibility that an act of self- killing motivated by altruism can count as suicide (Margolis 1980.)

    Such conceptual slipperiness befuddles moral arguments about the justifiability of suicide by permitting us to ‘define away’ self-killings we believe are justified as something other than suicide, whereas it would be desirable to identify first a defensible non-normative conception of suicide and then proceed to discuss the moral merits of various acts of suicide (Kupfer 1990.) Some philosophers, on the other hand, have embraced the apparently value-laden character of suicide, suggesting that word ‘suicide’ has as one its functions the ascription of moral responsibility, and insofar as disagreements about the extent to which agents themselves (as opposed to social conditions, medical facts, etc.) are morally responsible for their deaths persist, so too will apparently conceptual disagreements about the nature of suicide persist (Stern-Gillett 1987.)

    Supposing, however, that a purely descriptive account of suicide is possible, where should it begin? While it is tempting to say that suicide is any self-caused death, this account is vulnerable to obvious counterexamples. An individual who knows the health risks of smoking or of skydiving, but willfully engages in these behaviors and dies as a result, could be said to be causally responsible for her own death but not to have committed suicide. Similarly, an individual who takes a swig of hydrochloric acid, believing it to be lemonade, and subsequently dies causes her own death but does not engage in suicidal behavior. Moreover, not only are there self-caused deaths that are not suicides, but there are behaviors that result in death and are arguably suicidal in which the agent is not the cause of her own death or is so only at one remove. This can occur when an individual arranges the circumstances for her death. A terminally ill patient who requests that another person inject her with a lethal dose of tranquilizers has, intuitively, committed suicide. Though she is not immediately causally responsible for her death, she appears morally responsible for her death, since she initiates a sequence of events which she intended to culminate in her death, a sequence which cannot be explained without reference to her beliefs and desires. (Such a case might also be an example of voluntary euthanasia.) Likewise, those who commit ‘suicide by cop,’ where an armed crime is committed in order to provoke police into shooting its perpetrator, are responsible for their own deaths despite not being the causes of their deaths. In these kinds of cases, such agents would not die, or would not be at an elevated risk for death, were it not for their initiating such causal sequences. (See Brandt 1975, Tolhurst 1983, Frey 1981, but for a possible objection see Kupfer 1990).

    Furthermore, many philosophers (Fairbairn 1995, chapter 5) doubt whether an act's actually resulting in death is essential to suicide at all. It is common to speak of ‘attempted’ or ‘failed’ suicides, instances where because of agents' false beliefs (about the lethality of their behavior, for example), unforeseen factual circumstances, others' interventions, etc., an act which might have resulted in an agent's death does not.

    Hence, suicidal behavior need not result in death, nor must the condition that hastens death be self-caused. It follows, therefore that, first, a correct account of suicide (contra Durkheim 1897) must emphasize the non-accidental relationship between suicidal behavior and death (i.e., death is in some respect the aim of suicidal behavior). Second, what appears essential for a behavior to count as suicide is that the person in question chooses to die. Suicide is an attempt to inflict death upon oneself and is "intentional rather than consequential in nature." (Fairbairn 1995, 58) These conclusions imply that suicide must rest upon an individual's intentions (where an intention implicates an individual's beliefs and desires about her action. (See Brandt 1975, Tolhurst 1983, Frey 1978, O'Keefee 1981) One intention-based account of suicide (similar to Graber 1981, 57) would say, roughly, that

    1. A person S's behavior B is suicidal iff
      1. S believed that B, or some causal consequence of B, would make her death at least highly likely, and
      2. S intended to die by engaging in B.

    This account renders the notion of suicide as self-inflicted attempted death more precise, but it is not without its shortcomings.

    Condition (a) is a doxastic condition, and is meant to rule out as suicides deaths (or increased risks for death) caused by an individual's behavior where the individual causes these outcomes but does so out of ignorance of the relevant risks of her behavior, as when an individual accidentally takes a lethal dose of a prescription drug. At the same time, (a) accounts for cases such as the aforementioned terminally ill patient whose death is caused only indirectly by her request to die. Condition (a) does not require that S know that B will put her at a significantly greater risk for death, nor even that S's beliefs about B's lethality be true or even justified. Suicidal individuals often have false beliefs about the lethality of their chosen suicide methods, greatly overestimating the lethality of over the counter painkillers while underestimating the lethality of handguns, for instance. An individual could believe falsely, or on the basis of inadequate evidence, that placing one's head in an electric oven significantly increases one's chances of dying, but that behavior is nonetheless suicidal. The demand that S believe that B makes death highly likely is admittedly inexact, but it permits us to navigate between two extreme and mistaken views. On the one hand, it rules out as suicidal behavior that which is in fact only marginally more likely to cause a person's death (you are more likely to die in your car than in your living room) and is rarely utilized as a suicide method anyway. On the other hand, to demand that S believe that B certainly or almost certainly will cause S's death is too strict, since it will rarely be the case (given the possibility of intervening conditions, etc.) that B will necessarily cause S's death, and in fact, many suicidal individuals are ambivalent about their actions, an ambivalence which is turn reflected in their selecting suicide methods that are far from certain to cause death. It also allows us to distinguish genuinely suicidal behavior from suicidal gestures, in which individuals engage in behavior they believe is not likely to cause their death but is nonetheless associated with suicide attempts, while in fact having some other intention (e.g., gaining others' sympathy) in mind.

    Condition (b), however, is far more knotty. For what is it to intend by one's behavior that death result? There are examples in which condition (a) is met, but whether (b) is met is more problematic. For instance, does a soldier who leaps upon a live grenade tossed into a foxhole in order to save his comrades engage in suicidal behavior? Many, especially partisans of the doctrine of double effect, would answer ‘no’: Despite the fact that the solider knew his behavior would likely cause him to die, his intention was to absorb the blast so as to save the other soldiers, whereas his death was only a foreseen outcome of his action. Needless to say, whether a clear and non-manipulable divide exists between foreseen and intended outcomes is controversial (Glover 1990, ch. 6) (It is of course possible that whether death is foreseen or intended has no bearing on whether an act counts as suicide but still bears on whether that suicide is justified.) Some would argue that given the near certainty of his dying by jumping on the grenade, his death was at least weakly intended, in Alvin Goldman's sense (Tolhurst 1983.) At the same time, cases that are commonly viewed as suicide do not exhibit an full-fledged intention to die. Current psychiatric theory holds that many examples of suicidal behavior do not aim at death but are "cries for help." In such cases, the person does not wish to die, but intends to gain others' attention in such a fashion that holds out the possibility of death. However, it seems correct to say that when a person who issues a cry for help does die, despite not intending to die, their death is neither foreseen, since the person actually intends not to die, nor wholly accidental, since the person knowingly engaged in behavior that she believed will make her death significantly more likely, making her death in an obvious sense self-inflicted. (But see Graber 1981, 58) Such a case might indicate the need for a third category besides intentional suicide and accidental death, call it unintentional death or unintended suicide.

    In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

    Posted 1 year ago #
    royal osiodhachain - Inactive

    Dear David T Garrison, Are you trying to tell me that you killed 53 of your brothers when Christ has commanded you to "Pray for your enemies".

    How does your command from Christ become ridiculed when you obey your command from military?

    I know! Because you obey no one, only that little voice in your head that tells you to disregard the sanctity of life.

    In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

    Posted 1 year ago #
    fishman - Member

    perhapse this will be helpful in ending this on going debate:

    pay special attention to the last paragraph.

     

    I disagree that soldier falling on a grenade is suicide but that is a matter of definition. 

     

    Cathacim of the catholic church 

     

    Suicide

    2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

    2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

    2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

    Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

    2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

     

     

    Posted 1 year ago #
    David T Garrison - Inactive

    thanks Fishman, but that's already been posted in the Tiny thread

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

    Posted 1 year ago #
    fishman - Member

    David , perhapse this is best simply left.

    Royal seems to be intrested in emotional appeal then in anything related to the reality of this topic.

     No offense inteded Royal , but that is what seems to be happening to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
    David T Garrison - Inactive

    which suicide victim did they interview?

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

    Posted 1 year ago #
    David T Garrison - Inactive

    Are you trying to tell me that you killed 53 of your brothers when Christ has commanded you to "Pray for your enemies".

    are you for real?

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

    Posted 1 year ago #
    David T Garrison - Inactive

    I was a killing machine. Let me tell you this, it wasn't easy. 52 no 53 confirmed kills and these weren't domestic flies either these were desert flies, some of the meanest. Would chew their leg off to get free of the glue paper...

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

    Posted 1 year ago #
    fishman - Member

    David - you remind me of my grandfather in the way you speak about enemies in combat.

     ( he was a sniper in the WWII south pacific campaign)

     he always talked about how the Japanese had 'squinty eyes , just like rats !!'

    I realize it is necessary to distance yourself from the reality of what is happening in order to survive the situations you have entered , but now that such a time in the past wouldn't it be better to make an effort to also recognize the humanity of those you were forced to kill? They did after all fight for what the believed in , even if what they believed in was wrong.  Shouldn't we all hope that we are not likewise deceived?

     

     I'm in no way reproaching the heroic sacrifices you have made.

     

    I am only suggesting that it is helpful to recognize a certain gravity , in the fact that such was necessary. Certainly battles and wars and the killing involved in them will be a necessary evil until the end of time.

     

     Still we should keep in perspective that while necessary the are also an evil. 
    Posted 1 year ago #
    David T Garrison - Inactive

    25 years is a long time...

    "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

     "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mt 11:27-30

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

    Posted 1 year ago #

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