Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life

Protestant Pessimism vs Catholic Optimism

(85 posts)

1 2 3
David T Garrison - Inactive

 

the path to hell is paved with good intentions

there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Thus are most of us destined for hell?

Mercy, God, mercy. I believe whomever seeks mercy from God shall receive it.

Nothing impure shall enter heaven.

I believe in purgatory.

St Sebastian -

The falling away of Catholics is a direct result of refusing confession.

I don't understand. 

 

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

thank you for the explanation

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

SS

Is confession popular in the US?

Are you recommending daily confession?

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Confession weekly is what Priests are saying to keep the soul pure.

Confessing to God first (conscience effort and contrition prior to the visit to receive absolution).  

Confession is actually three process-- steps:

first you have to know you sinned. conviction not a bad word in this case.
then you have to talk to God about it.  quite time
next you go to get it wiped away.  Priest

This is a good thing for the soul.  Relieves all kinds of stress and nasty things running around inside your soul heart, conscience.  A Sacrament
instituted by Christ for our own good.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
When the storm comes do we get caught up in the storm to get blown down by it? Or do we pray during the storm for help from Heaven?

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Daily is too much, not enough time to consciencously follow through.

for true contrition to work, you have to have ample time to think things through.  Do you daily wash your clothes?  Wastes the elements.

The soul needs time to rotate and bring forth.  It is similar to growing vegetation, living things such as these and fish and animals grow by struggle.  You have to give time to fully understand to bring forth new leaves and fruit.  Weekly is what priest recommend in my neck of the woods.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
then again you spend time in dirt.  

Daily Mass keeps you clean. Daily prayer waters the soil in your soul.
Daily adoration of Heaven which includes God the Father, God the Son and the Eternal Spirit, Mother Mary, Angels and Saints, your Guardian Angel who you should pray to nightly to shine more light from God.  these things keep your soul
clean.  Prayer is not just moving of the mouth, but action as well.

The Good Book says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, then the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.  There are several prayers that have this in mind.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Whom to you say Vatican II came from Man or God?  If Christ is the Head and Body of the Church why do 'Catholics' bash, demean, disdain, Vatican II?  By doing so you go against the Seat of Christ.  Time to go to confession.  

By submitting to the Church you submit to Christ, do we not see this?  All this humbug about Vatican II this and that is exactly what the enemy wants.  A snare and trap, wise guy cracks from the Demon.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

Thank you for your five replies to my two queries.

I asked two questions.

 

Is confession popular in the US?

Are you recommending daily confession?

You did not answer the first.

Does your answer to the second imply that  JP II was wrong to go to confession daily?

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Noelfitz,

Generally speaking, confession is not popular in the US.  But maybe this is a "relative" measure.  In my area, confessions are held usually for 30 to 45 minutes once a week on a Saturday, and if you go then, you will see only a handful of people 50+.  No one is beating down the doors of the confessional.  Some churches have now gone to offering confessions only every other week.  In my book, this is not a sign of popularity.

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Different strokes for different folks.

Most priests here say once a week.  The cannon says once or twice a year.  Some say once a month.  

I have at times gone to confession to clear the pipes sort of speaking 3 to 4 times a week to deal with an issue.  But then again, I wasn't thinking properly because I was in the wrong mind set.  I had to take a step back and realize that, what my 'real' motives were, was it to get rid of the trash called concupiscence? or was it to appease my own ego?  It was both in most cases.  Then I heard within the inner self say, you have to give time to grow and learn to understand, God hears you daily.  He knows your heart.  That is why I recommend once a week because if your in a hurry to get to heaven, your in trouble.  Patience is what the bottom line is.  We all sin we are sinners, God knows our hearts.  Trust in the Lord to deliver us from sin.  He is able.  Even if you're in mortal sin status.  Because we must learn how we got there in the first place, if your thinking I've got to go and cleanse this to be better and running in anxiety to get absolved it is not true contrition.   Though you are in the correct thinking to get rid of this sin.  A steady pace and take in to understand why, how and what got you there.  Knowledge alone is not sufficient in this case, understanding is necessary.  Together it equals Wisdom which is what we are looking for.  To grow in virtue, to understand the consequences of sin and how to avoid in the future.

Then the next I want to say is that some of us have been badly deformed due to sin, and only time and patince with the virtue from
Heaven can heal the soul.  Some of us are not so bad off and are better
equiped inner self wise than others and are in less need of the Sacrament of confession.  

See we can do nothing apart from Christ, even confessing sins.
John 15, If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask
what you will and it shall be done unto you.  Often times we skip the first part of this verse and hurry to latter part. Then we ask amiss. St. James

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Lpioch and Bhokuto

 

thank you for your posts. 

I gather that confession is as popular in the US as it is in Ireland.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
the bottom line is that sin causes necessary sometimes and sometimes unnecessary suffering.  but it humbles the soul, humility is better to have and keep than pride.  confession helps to obtain meekness of heart.  daily bring before God your faults in quite time before and what remains bring before the priest to absolve.  venial sins are absolved at Mass and by doing good works.  Penance helps in atoning for past sins along with alms giving. praying helps obtain virtues as well as receive grace to confess, and after confession prayer is strongest in sanctified grace.  

the key when sinned is to first come before God through the Holy Mother
to obtain pardon, bring your wretchedness before Her who is Co-redeemer
and Medatrix of all graces.  Hail Full of Grace.  God gave her more graces
to help Her children.

Though Christ the Redeemer is Full of Grace as well His grace is different from the Mothers.  She is like the first stage in the process of being cleansed, Christ is like the final stage to bring before the Father.  Together they work wonders.  This is how I understand it thus far at least from what I've experienced.  My knowledge and understanding grows daily as long as I pray and be attentive to Her work in my life.
She reveals the True Christ overtime.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
delmerjohn - Inactive

Noel, I saw an article by Pope Benedict XVI advising all Catholics to avoid the trap of materialism. All that you mention in your concern about low attendance is confirmed by the current news from Ireland that the country is enjoying the greatest surge of wealth it has ever known. It does not seem that poverty should be a requirement of the faith, although the Pope is saying that pursuit of wealth will diminish your pursuit of faith. Ireland makes the majority of it's wealth from tourism I am told, now there is surprising interest in Ireland from travelers the world over. It is a great temptation to reject poverty when treasures and riches are so close at hand. Materialism also leads one to reject moral relationships in marriage and a general rejection of principles relating to faith since the wealth gives a person the [false] sense of security. This seems so elementary, although it is specifically the fault of Ireland and the USA as well. Materialism is decaying society in many nations. My sense is that we need to pray for poverty, humility and chastity as all faithful religious pray for without ceasing, especially in the consecrated communities.

A royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Delmerjohn

Much of what you say is correct.  Ireland is going through a prosperous stage at present and our loss of faith may be associated with it.

However from our discussions here in CE I feel that many of our problems are shared by you in the US.

Your recommendation that we should pray more is spot on.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
delmerjohn - Inactive

Sir Noel, Yes it is true USA and Ireland share identical problems due to globalization, in fact the entire world is becoming linked in an extraordinary way through technology. Even our enemies share the same internet connections and cell phone towers. I was last week purchasing a Biasi water boiler from Ireland on the internet to be shipped to my home in USA. It seems amazing and at the same time ordinary due to globalization. Homes in my area are inflating in cost to 450,000 American dollars which is out of reason for many. Gasoline is inflating to 3.25 dollars/gal. People here are feeling the pain of inflation, the poor are suffering more than ever.

We need God to provide now more than ever for our welfare as I am certain that He will as He has promised so. Yet many materialists who are greedy for a windfall inflate the cost of everything.

Many years ago the threat was communist or nazi or socialist, now the threat is materialist. Even the communists have abandoned communalism for materialism.

To remain a Catholic in the face of all this temptation requires as Pope John Paul 11 said, "White  martyrs of the faith" which are men and women willing to suffer a bloodless martyrdom for the sake of the kingdom. The "Red martyrs die a bloody martyrdom"

We of the 21st century who hold fast to the faith are the White Martyrs of the Catholic church and as you may see even in Ireland, some will be chosen by God to become Red Martyrs of the faith.

A royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.

Posted 1 year ago #
mkochan - Moderator

Delmerjohn, please visit this thread http://www.catholicexchange.com/en/node/65513 and then post your condemnation of the outrageous lies told by the poster, royal osiodhachain, against lpioch.

And while you are at it let us know what your opinion is of a guy who insults a lady and is not man enough to own up to it and apologize, but instead slinks around like a cowardly sneak with a mask on so people won't recognize him. The rest of us on the forum think that such a man is a low-life creep. Do you concur?

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Sir Noel had me thinking, but I wasn't sure...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Delmerjohn

I agree so profoundly with your post.  Thank you.

You write:i

n fact the entire world is becoming linked in an extraordinary way through technology. 

The fact I am discussing my hopes and fears with you shows how people throughout the world are connected. Prices are expensive here with gasoline almost $6 per gallon. Houses were much dearer than in the US, but seem to be falling in both countries. It is amazing; some folk default on house repayments in the US and this causes a run on at least one bank here, with queues outside it reminiscent of the depression in 1929.  

But as the Celtic Tiger is fading fast, perhaps we will become less materialistic.  However unfortunately I am tainted with materialism also.  

However the basic question, which troubles be a lot, I asked is how to overcome the pessimism I feel (as did Luther), compared to the optimism we should have since we have been saved by Jesus.

As I see it most Catholics today do not practice, or believe the faith.  Thus are they all damned?  Are most of us to end up in hell, in spite of all Jesus suffered for us? I know we should all hope in the Lord. Do the facts that only a few % of Catholics (mostly old) attend Mass (especially in Europe), contraception and abortion are  practiced, Sacraments are received unworthily  indicate that most of us will end up in hell?

God is rich in mercy to those who call on him.  But many do not.

We are threatened with the words “Depart from me you cursed”., “many are called, but few are chosen”.

I remember the words of Julian of Norwich “All will be well, all will be well, all manner of thing will be well” and “I came to save those who are lost”.

In replies to me the pessimistic view seems acknowledged.  

I would like to hear positive encouragement and hope in these difficult times.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Possibly, we should discuss the hour of death. For some it is in an instant, but we can't be sure of exactly what takes place. Time is of no concern to God. The instant of our death could be rendered into another lifetime of awareness for those who knew not what they were doing. Others realize in their later years the errors of their youth and repent and turn to the Lord. I believe the parable of the workers in the vineyard could apply here as it does also to keepers of the Jewish faith and the arrival of the new stewards. They shall all be paid the same wage-eternal life or eternal damnation.

And then there is Mary...our mother

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

Confession :

 The required number of times is once a year , but the advised is at least monthly.  Weekly isn't bad either.

 

 

Here in the U.S. our situation is similar to Irelands from what I can tell, although Irelands problems is imported where as the U.S problem is home grown. 

  

The best remedy as near as I can tell is when the bishops and priest take a tough line.

 We had one of young priest who recently did a homily about why people need to go to confession.  The week before he had waited for 30-40 min at the normal time and no one had shown up.  the week after his homily the line was so long he was there 2 hours and still hadn't finished. 

 

 Those of us who see and appreciate strong leadership from the pulpit need to make it known to our priest, pastors and bishops what a good job they are doing.  Many of these men sacrifice daily and feel isolated because they only hear the complaints ( such is human nature).  The complements need to come when they do the right thing , you can be sure the devil temps them by having those in his influence heap complements on them when they . relax , and are 'nice' to people. 
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

although Irelands problems is imported where as the U.S problem is home grown. 

where is it imported from? America?

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

when it comes to how many people will make it to heaven I know two things. 

 I) what the church teaches ( as I understand it):

a) it is not our place to personally judge any individual.  We can talk about their actions as right or wrong and weather or not a given action tends one toward judgment or not , but it must not cause us to rise in pride or be judgmental of those who we perceive to be greater 'sinners' then ourselves.

 b) we must not fall into the heresy of orginanism - in which we believe Everyone or simi-orginanims (nearly everyone) will go to heaven.

Neither are we allowed to be donists who believe that all Christians will go to heaven.

  

c) Jansenism – and other heresies that suggest that Christ died only for a select few and / or that the body is evil and most people are going to hell are also forbidden.

 

( Jansenism is was one of the things martin Luther was fighting against btw although Calvin’s philosophies seemed to pick up some of them.  Protestant use in protestant pessimism may be a wide brush here).

  d) in between the two extremes you may believe what God leads you too so long as that belief strengthens your faith in God.  Sometimes it is worth while to question weather or not it would bee good for you to know the answer to a question
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

when it comes to how many people will make it to heaven I know two things. ( as pertains to d in the post above).

 

  II) what I feel

 

It is not my place to worry about what is out of my control.  It is not my place to jusge others.

I am not the savior only his instrument, he does the real work, I need to focus on doing his will. If all are willing he will save all.  All will not be willing.

I must work for the salvation of all and pray for the salvation of all, not because all will be saved, but because that is the master work and what he wishes his servants to be about doing. 

Doing the will of my master must be enough; I must try not to concern myself with my apparent success or failure.  Is my country going ‘to hell in a hand basket’ perhaps, but my nation, my continent, my family and my friends are not the whole of humanity and if necessary I will ‘hate’ all of them in order to be his disciple.  Certainly I will hate their sins along with my own. 

Love, must by the guiding force, love of God and love of neighbor,  I will not judge who deservers love, that is the place of my master , whom I trust to help me in guarding my heart. 

To specifically engage the question.  I don’t know, nor is it my business to know.  And just because I perceive many sinners tells me nothing.  If 99% of Irishmen are hellhound today , perhaps 99 % went to heaven 200 years ago.  My perception tells me nothing about the true number of souls that enter the abyss or the heaven.

I must trust in him, I must work like everything depends on me I must pray like everything depends on him.  He will see that his work is done.  I must focus on him and be at peace as the maelstrom of the world rages around me.

Have no fear.  Love all.  Be for him.

     
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Sir Noel, Yes it is true USA and Ireland share identical problems due to globalization,

time to confess your royalty delmer...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
delmerjohn - Inactive

Noel, I have found that acknowledging miracles and gifts given to us by God is a means to increase and strength in faith. I know this is hard to do sometimes as it is also possible to attribute miracles to coincidence. A miracle or gift from God can be recognized by preceding incidents or coincidental happenings. Once they are received, the strengthening of faith is inevitable especially when we give thanks to God for the gift.

Example, I was diagnosed with throat cancer a year ago and surgically had it removed, then chemotherapy, then radiation. Finally the cancer team said I still have a small amount of residual cancer in my throat and the surgeons wanted to slit my throat to remove the lymph node containing what they presumed to be cancer.

I agreed to the surgery, then went to my parish priest for annointing and sacrament of the sick. The operation was done then to slit my throat and surprise to me another priest Father Damian came to annoint me for the sacrament of the sick. My lymph node was sent to pathology for introspection and the report came back to the surgeons: there was no cancer to be found in my neck or lymph node!!!

Coincidence or gift from God? You decide. For my part I gave thanks for a miracle. I am certain "something" has happened for you as well, Noel. Perhaps you are still deciding coincidence or gift?

When I feel all alone in my faith because there are few at mass or all my friends have become protestant or no one will support my life in any way, I think about the verse from Scripture, "I was appalled because not one would defend me, so my own right arm brought about the victory"

When we[you and I] meet Christ face to face, how much more sweet will be the triumph if we arrive at his gate through tremendous trial and suffering? How much more delightful the meeting of friends [as He called us] than if we made our way through a veritable desert of humanity to reach our final destination which is a face to face meeting with Christ our Savior. He will be pleased to say that He acknowledges our suffering united to His and we will become like Him.

Without trials and suffering our salvation means very little. I know this sounds like a cop out on reality, yet this is what the Saints and Martyrs suffered for. They prayed for suffering so that they could unite it to Christ's suffering therefore to become more like Him.

It is not easy to suffer anything let alone poverty, being alone in your faith, dispised for your beliefs, set about by men and women who want nothing more than to take advantage of you. I can tell you Noel, I do not enjoy suffering, I only pray that my suffering will bring fruit to my faith and joy to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

A royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.

Posted 1 year ago #
delmerjohn - Inactive

mkochan, I have no idea what you are referring to. You have me confused with someone I do not know. I do not know any Ipioch, I have not met her and I certainly have not insulted her.

I would appreciate your telling me how you arrived at your accusation that I am someone whom I am not?

A royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.

Posted 1 year ago #
mkochan - Moderator

I have never accused you of anything.  If you think I have, please copy and paste the post where you were accused.

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

delmerjohn - i don't think mary was accusing you , she was asking your opinion of lies told by someone else on a different thread.

 

easy to misread forms though, so much text , so little time, I've done it a couple of times myself.

Smile

Posted 1 year ago #
mkochan - Moderator

Right. You see we had this cowardly liar named Royal on the site who attacked lpioch.  She said she liked Scott Hahn's writings and he accused her of being unfaithful to her husband, if you can imagine such insanity.  Then, when offered the chance to apologize like a real man, he would not, and so he slunk off and has been trying to come back with another identity. Of course we will find out sooner or later no matter what identity he assumes, so even when he lies and claims he has never been on the forum before, like he did when he tried to call himself Saint Sebastian, we find out pretty soon.

Like I said, the rest of us find this to be the behavior of a low-life creep. And I just wondered if you would agree that such behavior is deplorable.

Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.

Donate

Welcome to our redesigned site. Your continued support will make further improvements possible. Please click here to donate.

CE Spotlight

Faith Factory

Champions of Faith Ad

Radio & Podcasts


Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge