Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life

What do you mean 'right'

(12 posts)

fishman - Member

The subject of rights seems to be a very fundamental one to catholic theology.

 

For instance do you believe that 'all people are created equal' and therefore 'all people should have equal rights'.

 

This is not catholic teaching.  we are not egalitarians. 

 Men and women have UNIQUE dignity and therefore different rights due to them.  Both mothers and fathers have a right to be respected by their children but the type and form of respect has a different character depending on weather it is due to the mother or the father.
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

The etymology of the word is also somewhat telling.

at one point in time there was little distiction between.  'the right due a person' and 'you are right to seek ways not to sin'.

 

So it is easily concluded that it is wrong not to give one his 'right'.

because the two are opposite terms with slowly deviating definitions extending from the use of the phrase 'right custom'.  'right custom due'

'right due too <x>'. 

 

Given that Perhapse the best definition of the term 'right' in the sense of 'human rights' would be

right: the correct way of acting towards an entitity as dictiated by both social norms as well as devine and natural law.

 

Further it would seem to me that from the materalistic perspecitive there can be no such thing as a inalianable 'right' including 'human rights' because for there to be such implies the existance of a 'natural law' which cannot exist without the existance of a natural law giver.

 

Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member

Right?

Interesting thought.  Just what does right mean?  Does it mean correct as in the opposite in incorrect or wrong?  But which right are we talking about?  Is it legally right?  If this is the metric we use then we have already lost the war against abortion.  Is it morally right?  Now here is where our teachings about our faith come into play.  If you are Catholic then this is going to be the same across the board.  Having a written catechism is a wonderful thing.  If you are non-catholic say protestant then your defined moral values may change.  I was born and raised Southern Baptist and I have never found no two ministers interpret or teach exactly the same way.  But then again I never saw a written creed or "catechism" for them either.  And our protestant brothers and sisters say the "pill" is okay.  I've always felt that if you say the "pill" is okay then you are also saying sex outside the sacrament of marriage is okay too.  Sorry not naive enough to believe that the "pill" is for married couples only so they will not have more kids.  But if the pill is "morally" right then are condoms right also?

 

Trying to find a clear definition of right is a very difficult task.  It how "right" has been interpreted by our courts and the media it is even more difficult. 

 

If I say I rely on the Bible to define right for me, then am I a fundamentalist that closes his mind and heart to the outside world?  Not open to new revelations of God's teachings?

 

Yes, fishman I answered your question with more questions.  Because like you I cannot define 'right' in a clear or concise manner.  But I do rely on our catechism, the Bible, and Church teachings to help me formulate an idea of what is right and what should be right.  But I have to consider that my "right' is different than someone else.

I think the true definition of right is one that will stand the test of time.

 

Tarheel

Posted 1 year ago #
lwall - Inactive

"Right" obviously has different meanings as function of context.  As a philosopher, I can tell u something of "right's"  dizzinging history varied contextualized meanings.

 A right scientific hypotheisis accurately predicts outcomes; a right mathematical equation proves the theorem ( there are, of course, many other types of mathematical right, Fishman); right in a juridcal context refers to a judge's conformity to case law hisitory in its decision; a right moral act or attitude refers to conformity to a given pre- established canon of '"right and wrong" in which a person acting thus and so is said to be morally right; right can refer to eternal and absolute truths that are said to precede human existence and time/ space as in "certain inalienable rights" given by God, or the right to life and dignity inherent in the human being because conferred by God; others invoke these same invariant rights of life and dignity on a humanistic ethic; if u are a Southerner, right can mean "very" as in " This chicken is right good!."

In general, right is a rather tautalogical word for in all instances I can think of, it at least means something of the form "..and this act, speech, attitude, or whatever conforms to what we think of as right... where "conforms to" can mean varied things : conforms to correct thereom proof; conforms to the way we here in the mountains should act and feel about things; conforms to eternal truth; conforms to what is essential about human morality; conforms to correct experimentation; conforms to logic; conforms to Catholic teaching, to the Buddha, or to the Reformers...  

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
lwall - I'm glad you are here I'm interested in what you have to say about this.

 

 you too tarheel.

 

 As i've thought about it I've realized most of what has been said already, but there is something still murky here.

 

 

As a catholic I can easily say I believe in 'human rights' and even 'basic human rights' like you hear about from politicians and U.N. diplomats, but I am forced to ask what the U.N. or the politicians mean by the term and do they mean the same thing I mean.

 

 I believe in human rights because I believe in divine law and human rights must conform to divine law.

 

 I have had more the one atheist point out to me that 'natural law' is only a dodge of hidden deism because the idea implies the existence of a 'natural law giver'. law being something that 'should' not be contravened because it is willed by a consciousness. As opposed to a physical force which simply happens to be as it is and if it is in ones power to circumvent implies not specific violation. examples being physical laws.

 

 

So I think I understand what basis Catholics come from when they talk about rights, I do not understand what basis one can have for discussing such a thing as a ‘universal right’ outside of a religion context.

  

Or perhaps all such discussion assume a implied religious context but are focused exclusively on points of agreement between the parties discussing with an attempt to avoid areas of disagreement.  That however seems dishonest to some extent. Or at least a failure in legitimate dialog , because if the difference are not at least acknowledge then the vested interests of the parties involved is obsured and the process more easily usurped or made ineffectual.

  

Lwall – do you know of a basis from which we can talk about human rights and not make reference to deity , dignity or natural law?

   
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
As I was entering the men’s room today I noticed a spider sitting on the wall.  At home , because of my wife I have developed the habit of indiscriminately squashing the little things. At this moment I thought to myself: “well, I'm not and home and he's not bothering anyone , it's got a right to live too". Then whilst I had time for further reflection I came to realize that that is a word used very glibly in the american vocabulary.

 

'right'

 

'right to life' 'right to choice' 'right to die' 'right' 'right' 'right'

 

Then I tried to define the word and realized I had almost no non-contextualized ( stand alone) definition of the word.

 

 So what does the word 'right' mean to you all.  How do you know if you have a 'right', are there conditional 'rights' or only inherent 'rights'.

 

 The best I've come up with so far is 'a right is that which  is due to a thing because of what that thing is or it's state of being'.

 

 

So it seems there are two types of rights those that come from what we invariably are ( for instance human rights) and those that come from our state ( for instance my boss may have certain things 'obedience' for example due him that I do not.) .

  In any case I thought I’d share this little reflection and see what others might have to contribute to it.

 

    I'd like to focus this discussion on human rights. I'm going to start a side bar on the rights of creation because i think it is another topic woth exploration.please all of you join me there as well.
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
maybe you should put it back into them as you're living in the world and Gods ways are not our and your ways.  Only God is right we just try to understand, comprehend His right.  World and Heaven.  World is twisty turvy seek self "right-eousness".  Where as God is "Right-eousness".

This is a slight play on words but we get the picture and root do we not?

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #

For me all this rights stuff come from Thomas Paine's Rights of Man and the Declaration of Independence and Our Constitution.  But, that is jsut me, the silly American pig-dog.

In your context you mentioned:

"So I think I understand what basis Catholics come from when they talk about rights, I do not understand what basis one can have for discussing such a thing as a ‘universal right’ outside of a religion context."

This has to do with the inherant value of human beings.  I guess it must be assumed that there are more than one or that for us to have rights we must be a community of people.  Rights would have no value if each man was an island and didn't give a rat's hind-end about what others felt were rights.

Also, in order to define it as a right or a "given" we must agree upon it.  It must be something we all take for granted.  In short it should be based on common experience of people.

Yet it is something we own inside our own subjective realities.

 

A right is something that:

1. Community (Social).

2. Based on common experience.

3. Something we all take for granted.

 

Seems like we are working toward a way to communicate and get along so that we can get beyond the basics toward common goals and a common and better future.

GK - God is good!

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
If you really think about we have no rights, it's just on paper.

God gives each person the right to live.  The world tries to stipulate and play God with each person.  Whereas God is trying to free the world from it's non-sense to those who see the illusion.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

Thomas Paine - also wrote in 'common sense' that we should throw off the dictates of the king for the same reason we through off the dictates of the pope!!.

 

I'm not so sure I trust his social theory.

However he certainly assumes the existance of diety.

Which is one of the things I consider so dangerous about those who make the claim:" I don't believe in imposing my religious convictions on others ..". 

 

Given that a good law is one that conforms to laws of God and a bad law is one that does not I don't see any way of determing what is good or bad law other then religious conviction. 

It seems to me the compromise of American system is one that lets people of many different beliefs fight it out on the political spectrum without bloodshed.  ( this is a really great thing IMHO) It lets what they hold in common to be right to be truely right and the majority rules.

 However, to say:  "I don't believe in imposing my religious convictions on others ..".  is to undermine the whole thing because it creates the illusion that there is some other source from which a law can be drawn. 

 

In the end all laws reflect someones morality.

 

 

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

bhokuto - implied in the right to live is also the right to those things needed to live ( food, water shelter) or at least the right to struggle and try to get those things.

Also, implied is the right to worship God correctly and to seek His love and the love of ones family.

 

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Amen.

God is Bounty my friend. Trust in Gods Bounty above all else.

Bounty is everything needed to sustain and elevate both physical and spiritual.  Elevation.  Not as we see it but as God sees it.  For He is looking at the soul to elevate it to His standards. The physical is elevated to the Cross.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #

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