Copied from the Vatican website: www.vatican.va regarding Catholic Doctrine of Lumen Gentium

Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”[5], that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.[6] “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.[7]

In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

My question is: Can you name the elements of sanctification already present in the communites that are not yet fully in communion with the Catholic church?

Yana 

Question:  Can you name the elements of sanctification already present in the communites that are not yet fully in communion with the Catholic church? 

Answer: The confession “Jesus is Lord”. 

The meaning of “subsist” is complicated.  It means “perdure”, but what does “perdure” mean.  Does it mean simply “is”.? But what does “is” mean? 

I am reminded of the words of that  eminent philosopher and statesman W. Jefferson Clinton:

"it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is".

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Pope Benedict XVI recently reaffirmed that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

We must be careful to follow the Latin translation approved by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church of “subsistit in” as used in Lumen Gentium.

“To adequately discuss the significance of the term « subsistit in » in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium it is necessary to recall that the presumption of correct interpretation is with the official explanation given for the text at the time prior to its approval.” 

I found the following article helpful:

NoelFitz,

In a recent thread you specified that you didn’t want any flippant answers.  Hmmm…..

Are you a moderator for this CE Forum?  I would like to know.  God bless you.

AlvinaL, I searched the Vatican website and did not find the statement from Pope Benedict XVI that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. If the Pope merely said this, then it is not Doctrine. Please forward to me a reference to the statement from the Pope so that I may read it as I am not allowed to believe in hearsay. Thanks so much.

I followed your posted reference which is a minor order objection written by a brother. I copied this:

Since the time of the Council much as been written and said about this obscured Scholastic phrase. One might add that its admission of the appearances of Christianity outside the One True Church, the Catholic Church, has not fostered conversion or union; but lead to widespread misunderstanding, interpreted as it is through the actions of the "ecumenism" promoted since the time of the Council. Hence it would be good for the Magisterium to explain the authentic meaning of this phrase, so as to put an end to its inutility in theological writings and talks on the nature of the Church.

This copy does not support your statement supposedly from the Pope.

Please try to post a supporting document from the Vatican.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

AlvinaL

Your Q: Are you  a moderator for this CE Forum? 

My A: No.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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NoelFitz,

Thank you for your response.  I’ve always thought you were CE moderator because you’ve been a long-time active CE poster.  I read your posts closely for support in the faith.

Peace and God bless.

alvina l, Your copy of the Washington Post summation is a false representation of Pope Benedict XVI's position. You are quoting a source other than the Pope and that source is making dour remarks regarding the Pope's credibility and intent. Do you see the dishonesty in quoting an opponent of the faith from maligned persons in their statements? You did not quote Pope Benedict XVI in this regard, you are quoting a news reporter. Am I understood or do you persist in quoting those who object to the Pope's management of the Doctrine? I am interested in how you see your own research and quotations. Thanks. The Pope has made it clear to Catholics where the truth is found, obviously you are searching for the truth in the Washington Post.

As I asked earlier, can you find any document from the Vatican?

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

The Washington Post portions that AlviniaL quoted did pretty accurately represent what the document said, even if the Post articel as a whole was unfriendly toward the pope's position.

The document said that Protestant faith communities are not properly churches.

Alvinia, you did not cause any confusion.

alvina l, If you wish to quote the Pope or read a document he has written, the proper procedure is to go to his website: www.vatican.va then search the topic in the upper right hand corner of the page. You can find any document you can imagine. To take quotes from sources that are bent on slandering the Pope then presenting those quotes to others gives to others an image of yourself as having the same slanderous attitude toward the Pope. This is my concern. You may have satisfied mkochans requirments although your communications with me cause me concern for your appearance as a faithful and adequately informed Catholic. When you take sides with detractors, you appear to be a detractor.

If you were wanting to post a quote from a detractor of the faith to show the existance of such tripe, you could immediately place a * sign with the word disclaimer, then write your purpose in making the quote making clear that you do not hold the same posture or attitude as the person you quoted, and that you quoted solely to prove this or that person to be in fact a detractor of the faith.

 I am only writing this to you to help you in your understandings with others. I hope you understand my intent as loving.

 In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

alvina l, I appreciate your communication. I copied from the Vatican, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church. 

As far as I am concerned alvina, I am going to adhere to the Vatican's statement of position concerning the communities outside the Catholic church. The Washington Post is not authorized to moderate at all and in any way interpret the teachings of the Doctrine of Faith. That task is entrusted to the Bishops who in turn delegate to parish priests. Thank you and may God bless us all.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen