Good question?  Didn't Pope JP II say we should express love for homosexuals but not thier life style and homosexual acts?

This may be a difficult question for a good many folks due to homophobia and other stereotypes.  Not real sure sure how I myself could address this.

and this may prove helpful in understanding what one is dealing with:

World Youth Day: From Toronto to Cologne

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

A small point ...  And I do not want it to derail this great thread.  Homosexuality is not the same as a the sin commited by a prostitute.  I would say that the person who goes to a prostitute (whoremonger) does a more intrinsically evil act than a prostitute.  This is because a whoremonger uses a prostitute for nothing to do with love or the potential for life.  There is no good that I can see in being a whoremonger.  Where as I can see that a prostitute is making a living and possibly could be supporting a family.  I can see no good in the act of using a prostitute on the other hand.

So, I say homosexuality, like adultry, is a sin akin a whoremonger.  This is not to say that the prostitute commits a good act or a non mortal act.  It is just confusion all the way around, having nothing to do with love or life during the most intimate act between humans.

By the way fishman, great start of this thread.  Very well put and directed!  I say again do not let me derail this thread.

GK - God is good!

GK, It is written in the old Testament, "It is better to spill your seed into the belly of a whore than on the ground"

Perhaps this means that it is better to visit a prostitute than to masterbate oneself or as it has been described by Father Hardin[regarding homosexuality] mutual masterbation.

Father Hardin says homosexuality is nothing more than mutual masterbation between members of the same sex.

As the old Testament is the same truth as the new Testament, then it is better to visit a prostitute than to engage in homosexual acts.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Yanastrovich,

Perfection is in Christ.  All else need His mercy.  Call all to Jesus.  Show them that only through Christ do we find love and truth.  We can fight over the degrees of sins and how we should stack up different sins.  But I think it is at least as important to love those who are not as easy to love.  And one way to do that is to remember that we are sinners and that sin keeps us from Jesus.  Any sin that gets in the way is in need of removal.  We are all sinners and that fact may help us to love the sinner who sins through homosexual acts.

Sin should not be the focus, even when helping bring a sinner back to God.  And if we are to bring a sinner back to God we need to understand that Christ would leave the 99 to get that one lost sheep.  We need to love sinners, because we too are sinners and yet Christ loves us and died for us.  Christ embraced the cross!  We run from the cross.  We justify our selves and allow sin to continue in ourselves because our sins don't seem as heinous as other people's sins.  And in that the devil suceeds and builds hate in us.  Thus, we focus on the sin and don't see the person beyond it.

Many priests and wise men have helped remind me that sins are evil and must be rooted out.  And I would not deny all the truth that they speak and you so rightfully remind us of.  Yes homosexual acts are sinful.  I agree.  Yet their sinfullness should not blind us to our own sinfulness and need for Christ's mercy.  Christ calls us all. 

Oh and please show me where "It is written in the old Testament, "It is better to spill your seed into the belly of a whore than on the ground""

I do not recall that verse.

In Christ's love,

GK - God is good!

GK, The way to help a homosexual most lovingly is to help him or her make the confession of sin at thier own desirous moment. Most people will confess if you give them half a chance. They need a quiet, secure place with the full knowledge that thier confession will remain confidential.

It is very difficult to help someone unless they want to be helped and that means that the homosexual must want to quit or at least slow down.

Whores are in the same boat as homosexuals insofar as confession and the desire to quit or slow down. Isnt that the frame of mind we all need to approach the confessional?

No matter what the sin, it must be confessed in order to reach absolution. Homosexuals and whore need the confessional as much as you and I do.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

fishman, Sin by it's very definition is perversion of the will of God. Homosexual sex is merely one perverse act outside of Sacramental marriage. Perversity can be accomplished through sin in every aspect of human existance and through any of the Sacraments. [there are seven: lust,greed,gluttony,pride etc]. That is why Christ said, "A perverse generation looks after a sign and none shall be given it save Jonah".

Any human interaction can be perverted, that is why occasionally we have perverse comments on this forum from everyone at some time or another. Perverse from graciousness and charitable love in Christ. That is why we all are suppose to be constantly reconciling although some on this forum imagine falsely that they are always gracious and charitably loving when in fact they speak perversity.

The only way for homosexuals and whore and CE forum exchange posters will be absolved of perversity is in the confessional.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Fishman wrote: they offend the digity of the human being and the dignity and holiness of sexuality and sensuality

I agree. And these sins also turn our attention inward to self pleasure and self gratification, denying God's role in life and the conjugal act. Many ask the Church to stay out of their bedrooms but God is always present and these sins as well as contraception are an attempt to close the door on God.

As to the men or women who engage in prostitution for monetary gain, I believe the sin is obvious there. We should also remember that all that engage in such activities are not necessarily willing participants.

Either way, choice or force, prayer, a deeper understanding of what could drive one to such despair and confusion, and charity are the answers to how we should engage those who have fallen into these sins against God remembering that their consciences are probably formed to believe that what they are doing is either morally correct or lacking any other option.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

David

You wrote:

Either way, choice or force, prayer, a deeper understanding of what could drive one to such despair and confusion, and charity are the answers to how we should engage those who have fallen into these sins against God remembering that their consciences are probably formed to believe that what they are doing is either morally correct or lacking any other option.

This is sound, well said.

It is not for us to judge those who appear to be practicing homosexuals.

For a sin to be committed  the act must be grevious and committed with clear knowledge and full consent.

Catholics who believe in contraception, miss Mass on Sundays or are living together outside marriage may not be in a state of grace.  Those who are not in the above categories may also be in a state of mortal sin due to pride or other sins.

We are all sinners.  We all stand in need of God’s mercy.

We should not judge anyone, not even ourselves.

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself (NRSV, 1 Cor 4:3.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Ignatian, yu wrote,

  can be in good standing with the Lord by practicing abstinence.

I think the Church uses the word chastity, it means more than abstinence. I see no fault as this is meant for the laity.

You also wrote, This policy or element of doctrine opens the floodgates into the clergy for gays.

In this you have overlapped the teaching for those that are same sex addicted and those that would be priests. The Church has many documents and regualtions in regards to whom should become a priest. Homosexuality is a "deal breaker". Some bishops in the discernment of men may have "overlooked", or been deceived by, men who desire the priesthood, but the official stance of the Church remains.   

Remember, the Sun is always shining!