Noel, I don't know if I quite understand what you are asking when you write, "...people, including Catholics, live and are sexually active outside marriage.  How does the Church treat these people?"

The Church treats them with the same love and fidelity that it gives all children of God. Even more so than the righteous. As God disciplines and admonishes those that He loves, so to does Jesus' Bride here on earth correct those who live a marital relationship outside of marriage. No matter what the age, gender or financial status.

I think it is of great importance to understand that these laws and commandments are not of the Church's mindset, but those of the Head of the Church, Jesus. To break the commandment of, "thou shalt not commit adultery", is to sin against God. As Jesus stated, "this is how it was meant to be from the beginning, yet because of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave you divorce."

Throughout salvation history men and women have come and gone who would change the teaching of the Church and use its power for falsehood. God judges those who would do such scandalous things to His Bride. However, He remains faithful and loving in the deposit of faith that He has given and continues to give to whom He chooses to this day. To those who have ears and those who have eyes, Jesus says, "come, come all you who thirst and are hungry. The Bride and the Spirit say, come!"

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Noel, 

In reading your post again, I have seen that you may have overlooked my comment about the "roots". Those older adults, let's say 35-55 years old, are an example for our youth. Mom, you smoke, don't tell me it's wrong. Do as I say, not as I do young lady! Dad, you have a girlfriend living with you, why can't I? Well, son, I am doing it for you. If I marry this woman she may gain some of your possession, but if we live in sin only my soul is in jeopardy.

As to the annullments that may seem to be bought by wealthy people and delayed for the unknowing, I can only say that I am a believer in the justice of our Church. Marriage has been thrown around as a fad over the last forty or fifty years and not looked at through the eyes of a believer. If it had been, you would surely not see the divorce and contraception use that we have amongst Catholics today. Again, malformed consciences and the inclination to self are at fault as well as some who would lead the faithful away from the truth and proffer their own theology or desire acceptance of a particular deviant behavior.

Loving correction is what is needed. Alot of it. And it must be dug up and destroyed completely lest it rear its ugly head again. Will this be possible with a secular media and fearful education system? Pray. Pray that the Holy Spirit will descend upon us and renew the face of the earth!

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Noel,

Obviously, I was forming a thought when you replied. Thank you for your comment. I do seek to hear others on these topics of cohabitation and annulments. I think I will change the title of the thread.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Does the Catholic Church allow someone who is cohabitating to receive Holy Communion?

Can someone who has divorced and remarried without seeking a statement of nullity for the first marriage receive Holy Communion?

It is very confusing when these things happen. It is very difficult to discern whether the priests and bishops involved have any desire to save the souls in their care.

How hard is it to understand that we love these people, even right where they are; but we love them too much to leave them there.

The Achilles' heel of Catholicism is cowardice.

Noelfitz,

Could you please clarify what you are asking (I believe starting in another thread that David then brought here) regarding annulments?

From your past statements (and maybe I'm remembering past threads as well?), it seems that you think annulments are simply Church-approved or Church-sanctioned divorce.  And that such a notion is repulsive to you.  Am I correct in my understanding of your thoughts?

As for annulments, they are merely the recognition that the marriage sacrament NEVER actually ever took place.  It is not a reversal of the sacrament, but a recognition that a marriage does not nor ever existed.  I don't have the "requirements" right in front of me, but extreme examples can show how it is possible for a couple to be "married" in the eyes of men, but not in the eyes of God.  A shot-gun wedding comes to mind.  Clearly, such a "marriage" was under duress, and not a free act of one or both persons.

That is the "theory" of annulments, and I think you could agree, they are certainly help the faithful to be cared for properly by the Church. 

Now for the actual implimentation of annulments.  Clearly it is not a preserved-from-error process.  There certainly could be mistakes, or worse, abuses to the process.  Such leave the Church open to attack, as well as the individual souls that are affected.  John Paul II certainly came down on the US for having declared too many annulments. 

All this brings me around to what I think Noelfitz is getting at.  If the church declares a marriaged annulled, when in fact it was a valid marriage, the original 2 people may marry others...but if their original marriage was valid, then they must be living in adultry.

To which, the only answer is faithful obedience.  If the couple "bought" their way to an annulment, then they are in full knowledge of trying to deceive God (as if such could even happen), and they are fully accountable.  If the couple innocently accept the declaration of annulment, and then remarry, they are following in obedience those that God has placed in their path to guide and help them.  They would then not be culpable if the declaration was incorrect.

God is both merciful and just.  Thank God!

Ignatian77

Thank you for your post.  

You wrote:

Annulments are now a reality… I have one…. My first marriage was a disaster that would have ruined many lives if it had not been dissolved.

I am sorry to hear that your first marriage did not work out and I wish you and your family every happiness and blessing.  I hope anything I wrote was not hurtful for you.  I write as an ordinary Catholics and my views May be in error.

However you do reveal the double-think in the Church, in so far as you mention that your first marriage was annulled.  Annulment is meant to signify there was no marriage, it does not dissolve a marriage.  However in practice it is a pragmatic, not very honest, way of allowing divorce in the Church.

I will try to expand my ideas in a post to Lpioch.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Lpioch

You wrote:

Could you please clarify what you are asking (I believe starting in another thread that David then brought here) regarding annulments?

I am grateful to you for giving me an opportunity to expand on my thoughts. 

I appreciate your courteous non-confrontational request.  I am only an ordinary Catholic and I may be in error.  CE is at its best when we tease out our ideas with charity and humility.  I do hope that my views are not causing upset to any of my friends in this roundtable.  

I write from my experience, others may have different experiences.  I admit that in some cased annulments may be valid.  I will try to clarify my position; I think Pope John Paul II shared my concerns.

I agree fully with you: “As for annulments, they are merely the recognition that the marriage sacrament NEVER actually ever took place”.  

It is difficult for me to appreciate that a person who was married for over twenty years, has four children and seven grand-children was never married.  Also, as I have said previously, if  there was no marriage then the children are illegitimate in the eyes of the Church. Here  the double-think comes in again claiming that as the marriage existed in the eyes of the state the children are  legitimate.

In Ireland some time ago divorce was not allowed and it was extremely difficult to get an annulment, many were given with the condition that the partners could not remarry.  The outcome was folk ignored the Church and cohabited.

I have a priest friend who in his apostolic zeal seeks to regularize remarried people.  He claims he can get anyone who is divorced an annulment in a State in the US, where he works during the summer.  One does not even have to visit this State.  He claims that automatically an annulment can be obtained. 

The Catholic Church does allow divorce due to the Petrine and Pauline privileges and it also allow divorce a mense et thoro -  divortium a mense et thoro.   

The Church also, if it wanted to, could allow divorce using the Power of the Keys, Christ said “whatever you loose on earth is loosed also in heaven”.

You write:

If the church declares a marriaged annulled, when in fact it was a valid marriage, the original 2 people may marry others...but if their original marriage was valid, then they must be living in adultry.

I slightly disagree the decree of annulment is not an infallible decree, it is just an opinion of a local tribunal. 

You also write:

it seems that you think annulments are simply Church-approved or Church-sanctioned divorce.  And that such a notion is repulsive to you.  Am I correct in my understanding of your thoughts?

I would answer Yes and No.  The decisions are taken by local tribunals which vary in their rigour.

However I do want to stress that I am not judging individuals, as, obviously, there are cased where annulments would be appropriate where no marriage occurred in the first place. 

Once again thank you for your friendly request to me to clarify and expand my thoughts.    

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Very interesting thread! As I consider the thoughts and points on the subject - "annulments are simply Church-approved or Church-sanctioned divorce", I can't help but ponder the divorce rate itself within the Catholic Church. If children grow up in Catholic families and do not understand the permanence of marriage according to Church teaching, then is it any surprise that the divorce rate among Catholics is no less than among any other group? How much has the move away from prohibitions against marrying outside the Church contributed? I am a convert, and I am also grateful for the annulments (yes, plural, sad to say) that I was granted before I converted. The process itself shined a light of clarity on my attitude (coming from a large extended family that boasted of its divorce rate) toward marriage and truly prepared me to accept the tragic fallout of that decidedly unholy outlook. So, the process can (and should) be one of self-examination and healing. However, I do believe it is too frequently a rubber stamp meant only to keep members in the Church. Just as we have liberal priests and bishops who favor messages of peace, love and inclusion, there are tribunals that err on the liberal side just to keep peace in their communities. These are the same who avoid the question of cohabitation during marriage preparation classes even though 1) receiving communion while actively engaged in mortal sin is mortal sin and 2) the overwhelming statistics that show a much higher divorce rate among couples who live together prior to marriage than among couples that did not.

I am one of those misguided souls who was offered my first communion at the Easter Vigil mass in the company of my live-in boyfriend and his family. Did I know my living arrangement was wrong (yes), did I know it was a mortal sin to receive communion at that time (no). Our deacon who oversaw our marriage prep knew we were living together and brushed it aside. As a result, even on our wedding day, we received communion in a state of mortal sin. I was angry, really angry to my core, when I learned that my confirmation and marriage were so tainted.  I cannot tell you how hurt I was that this was overlooked by those responsible for my formation and marriage preparation. Why I didn't realize it before has to do with the formation of concience - a process that was not well tought in my RCIA class, and unaddressed by our priest. Praise be to God that my eyes were opened to the truth and I have been reconciled. Nevertheless, it probably goes without saying that we have virtually no credibility teaching abstinence to our adult children. I am bolder in my witness to our children about chastity, modesty and marriage, but the example we set a long time ago is a yoke that is not easily abandoned.   

"The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith

Work in Progress 

Thank you for your very frank and moving post 

You wrote:my confirmation and marriage were so tainted. 

Were you too hard on yourself?  An act is only mortally sinful if it is grevious matter and committed with clear knowledge and full consent. 

As I wrote before we are all sinners.  We do not know for sure whether we are in the state of grace or not. We can only hope in God’s mercy. 

However I am pleased to hear that you “have been reconciled”. 

I hope that in this roundtable you will gain peace and consolation, knowing that we love you, as does God, and are praying for you.  

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Lpioch

thank you so much for your detailed reply to me.  I appreciate your deep knowledge of the faith.

My discussion about the Power of the Keys may be completely wrong.  I am no theologian.  But the Church does allow divorce due to the Petrine and Pauline Privileges.

If children are born to unwed parents they are illegitimqte.  Thus if the parents obtain an annulment, which is  it is a statement that there was no marriage, the children are illegitimate in the eyes of the Church. However in Irish law discrimination against illegitimate children has been abolished.

Perhaps those who have been happily married should not be too smug.  What was it about the Pharisee and the Publican?

Once again thank you for sharing your deep and sound understanding of Catholicism with us.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Noel, Your logic is faulted as you stated, "Using the above anyone can get a divorce.  Just claim your partner is immature.  I think every woman thinks her husband is immature.  The man can claim the “wife” is emotionally unstable.."

 I have already been involved with the Tribunal process for annulment and I know in detail how it is done:

1.The spouse requesting the study for annulment states a reason for the request to the Tribunal.[a divorce must have already been done].

2. A letter goes out to the opposing spouse who has 2 weeks to reply or the study will proceed without any response.

3. The Tribunal sends letters to witnesses requesting eyewitness reports of first hand knowledge of the marriage.

4. The Tribunal studies all evidence, then defines the cause with the opposing spouse represented by a canon attorney.

5. A decision is reached naming a cause or stating that there is none.

6. The opposing spouse is notified that the decision is being sent to the higher court of Tribunal in another Archdiocese for concurrance or to the Roman Rota [at the Vatican] for concurrance.

7. In the event of a declaration of annulment is granted the terms are spelled out and notice is given to both spouses.

This process is very difficult to manipulate, Noel as there are about 14 persons on the Tribunal including a representing attorney for the spouse named invalid. Also, anyone may request the involvement of the Vatican to finally decide.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Yana, see my post dated Oct 27th 12:10 pm

As for your dog, although I can see how it is upsetting, the culture you were immersed in finds the practice quite common as does the Korean culture. Since the animal was provided by God for us to have dominion over and it lacks a soul, eating the animal is not considered a sin. I realize also that we consider it inhumane. 

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

David, you asked "How did you come to see?". It was something of a process with many parts. I was studying the Gospel According to Matthew (Catholic Scriputre Studies), through which I discovered the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book about which I had never even been curious). I had also joined a small apologetics discussion group. As providence would have it, the two studies converged on the intitution of the eucharist. It became so clear to me that I hadn't really understood that Jesus was truly present in the eucharist, and that I needed a serious (and long over due) examination of conscience!

NoelFitz, I do understand, or at least I am growing in my understanding, about mortal sin. I am too hard on myself, although knowing that I had been "living in sin" (as I had been known to refer to myself) certainly suggested that I had consented. While my choices may have earned me an extended residence in pergatory, I am very grateful that I have a confesor who has shown me what In Persona Christi really is. The shame I felt at discovering my error was certainly God's work for it brought forth humility and contrition and set these feet (and heart) on a new path.

"The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith