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what the different between catholic and bapists
(114 posts)I think a good place to start would be asking your husband who was raised catholic...
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
Faycarol
You are very welcome here.
I agree with David.
You and your children might find it beneficial to go to a Catholic Church with your husband.
I think that the essential difference between Catholics and baptists is the Mass and the sacraments. However we do have a lot in common "Jesus is Lord". The Apostles' Creed is also a good summary of the belief of Catholics.
May God bless you and your family.
NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Faycarol,
I don't know if we could simply give you a list of differences. I do recommend the Compendium to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (It's much shorter than the Catechism, yet contains the same elements of our profession of faith.)
Maybe it would help us if you could ask what Catholics believe on a particular topic. I'll start with Baptism because I do know that the Catholic Church and the Baptists think differently on baptism.
For a Catholic, baptism is the initiation of a soul into the Family of God. Through baptism, one becomes a member of the Body of Christ. Through baptism, the Blessed Trinity (The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) make their abode in your soul. Through baptism, you receive the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity. These virtues cannot be attained or gained (like human virtues can) by one's self. They MUST be pure gift from God. This (as well as historically, it has been done for 2000 years) is why Catholics baptize infants. We want our babies to be a part of this Divine Family as soon as possible and to begin to receive the graces necessary to form them as good sons and daughters of God.
We also "believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin". That means ANY baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a protestant denomination, is valid. As long as the person was baptized with the formula "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and water was used. So, most likely, your baptism is recognized as a true baptism in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
This is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what the Catholic Church believes. There's a tremendous treasure in the Eucharist. But it is difficult to know what you would like to know. Please ask more questions!
-- Loretta
Maybe these links will help with Noel's and Loretta's suggestions...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a2.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/nicene.htm
In Christ,
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
faycarol,
For which version of the Bible to use, I prefer the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. The best one is, of course, one which you will use.
A good web site with a well-organized question and answer catechism of the Catholic faith geared towards explaining the faith to children can be found here.
As you discover the differences between Baptists and Catholics, please try to avoid hearsay and find out what the Church actually teaches.
Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide and strengthen you.
God bless you in your efforts to unite your family in following Jesus.
PTR!
.......is there anything special that I would need to tell my kids about so that they would understand it before they go
When you come in full communion with the Church, you can tell them that the God of the Universe is going to be present for them to consume and adore. Something most Catholics are trying to understand.
....why do ya.ll pray through mary
She is our mother and the mother of God. We venerate her and give her the justice she deserves as the Ark of the Word. We dot not pray through her but we beseech her to mediate for us to her Son, Jesus. Much to learn about Mary, as your Baptist past has probably just about omitted her.
....does everyone goes to mass even chidren
All are welcome here.
I give you short answers. There are some good Catholic minds in these forums that will provide more insight, but I think you should do some reading and pray,alot! The Holy Spirit will set you afire!
p.s. I believe most Bible versions are adequate although some can intentionally seek to omit or change words. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the NASB with an imprimatur{approval by the Church} will suffice.
Remember, the Sun is always shining!
Yes. Everyone goes to Mass together. Kids...babies...you name it. My children have been going since they were only days-old.
The only thing you need to know before you go to Mass is regarding the reception of Holy Communion.
If you are not Catholic (which you and your children are not), then you and your children should not receive Holy Communion. You may feel a little strange remaining in your seat while others go up to receive, but believe me....no one will (or ought) to give it a second thought. So don't worry about that.
The reason you should not receive Holy Communion is really 2-fold, but very related:
1) We believe Communion IS the body, the blood, the soul, and the divinity of Jesus Christ. Because you are not Catholic, you do not believe this. (If you believe it, you'd be Catholic...see what I mean?) Therefore, since you do not believe this, it would not be right for you to receive.
2) Holy Communion is a communion of the persons in the Catholic faith. Your reception would be a statement by you that you believe what the Catholic Church believes. Clearly, you do not (again...or you'd be Catholic) ...therefore, you should not falsely betray what you really believe. By receiving Communion, you are saying something that is not true.
Like I said, these two reasons are very related to each other.
I hope you don't take this as harsh. I offer this in deep love for your integrity as well as deep love for the Catholic faith and a deep love for the Eucharist (Holy Communion).
As for why do we pray to Mary? We are to be like Christ. Christ followed the 4th commandment (Honor your father and mother). He fully and infinitely fulfilled this commandment (he Honored God the Father and Mary), and we, to be like Him, also honor God the Father and Mary.
Uniquely, we also WORSHIP God the Father. We do not worship Mary or any of the other saints. It's like a telephone call to a relative, asking them to pray for us. On earth, it's an actual telephone. In heaven, God's the operator. :-) He likes for his family to be in communication with each other. It's a sign of a healthy family.
It dawned on me, you might also want to know what to expect step-by-step.
It will really really help you to follow along if the church has a missallette - a book with the prayers and such. If not, simply be and listen. It's OK.
Hopefully I don't leave too much out, but here is approximately what you can expect:
(for standing, sitting, kneeling, just watch what those around you do)
Everyone will stand at the beginning, and most likely sing a song, and the priest will come to the altar.
He begins with a blessing. (You'll notice the sign of the cross. This is constant throughout Catholic liturgy, as it is a blessing reminding us of the Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
After the blessing, he will call all people to be mindful of their sin. This is a call to repentance.
Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Then the Gloria, a prayer, will be said. This is praise, thanksgiving, and worship of God.
Everyone will sit for the Bible readings:
1 reading from the Old Testament
1 reading of the Psalms
1 reading from the New Testament
Everyone then stands for the reading from the Gospel.
After the Gospel reading, all sit and the priest gives his homily. Ain't nothing like you're used to in the Baptist church. Chances are good it won't go past 10 minutes.
After the homily, everyone stands to say the Nicene Creed (you can see it linked here).
Then there are prayers of the faithful - the lector will begin a list of intentions to pray for, and after each intention says "we pray to the Lord" and the congregation responds "Lord, hear our prayer."
After the prayers of the faithful are finished, everyone sits while a collection is taken up. Then the gifts of bread and wine are brought to the priest in front of the altar. This is when everyone is praying that their lives also be made into gifts that will unite with the Eucharist that is about to come later in the Mass.
The priest blesses the bread and wine (actually, using prayers that are very similar to prayers used at the Jewish seder) because it is about to become Christ's body and blood.
Everyone stands for more prayers to God, and singing (with the angels) the Holy Holy Holy. It should be noted that MOST of the prayers said throughout the Mass are almost all from scripture. This one especially.
All then kneel for the Eucharistic Prayer.
This is when the priest, through the power of the Holy Spirit, changes the bread and wine into Christ's Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
After the Eucharistic Prayer, everyone prays the Lord's Prayer.
Just keep in mind, the doxology that most protestants have at the end of the Lord's Prayer is NOT part of the Catholic version. However, it is said just a few moments later.
Here's the Lord's Prayer for a Catholic.
After the Lord's Prayer is the sign of peace that the priest first offers to the congregation. Then the congregation turn to each other and offer each other Peace. This is usually done with a handshake and saying "Peace be with you."
Then there are more prayers and a call to behold the Lamb of God (the priest is holding up the host).
Then people line up to receive communion. It is perfectly fine for you and your children to remain seated.
When communion is finished, there will be a final blessing, and the Mass is over.
I hope this helps and does not overwhelm you. I know it is nice to have a little heads-up before entering into something new.
Welcome faycarol. I converted from being raised a fundamental Southern Baptist in 1988. I think you will find out that a lot of the "stories" you have heard about Catholics are false. So don't be afraid. I attended Mass many years as a non-catholic but no one knew it. I just sat in my pew while everyone received Communion. A lot of time I would kneel and pray until Communion was over with. One thing you will learn is that Catholics don't check membership at the door.
"All are welcome in this House"
You mentioned Bibles. My advice is to find a good Catholic Bible to read. Go to a local bookstore like Barnes and Nobles and look at the different translations. I personally like the NAB and the Jerusalem Bible.
Everyone attends Mass together. Some parishes have a "Children's Liturgy of the Word" where the children go to another room with some teachers to learn about Christ and his teachings in an environment that is geared to them. We Catholics have a "Cry Room" This is where [parents take children that are crying so they don't disturb everyone else and the parent can still celebrate the Mass.
Keep in mind that as much as Mass is a service it is a celebration.
faycarol, Like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz movie, it is best to start in the beginning.
The Catholic church has a program for new members called the Rite of Initiation of Christian Adults. Any Catholic church should be able to refer you to a program near you with a start date. The RICA program [abbreviated title] will provide you with all the answers you need as well as a coach or coach couple who will get the answers for you.
This is the recommended place to start for new comers to the Catholic faith. I enrolled myself in RICA to experience the effectiveness and I can tell you from my experience that all my questions were answered responsibly and immediately.
Your husband, I am certain would be pleased to see you enroll. Simply call any Catholic church to find the nearest most available RICA program.
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Not a problem.
My conversion to the Catholic faith started one Sunday when my USAF buddy asked me to go to Mass with him. Having nothing else to do I tagged along. I had never been to a Catholic service before so this was all new. At the Mass I sat in my pew while my friend said his prayers and meditated. As I sat there I kept feeling this cold wind on my neck like someone was breathing on me. In fact I turned around several times to see if anyone was behind me. The pew was empty behind me. I looked around to see if an air conditioner vent was blowing on me. None were even close. But I kept feeling a cold chill on my neck and like someone was behind me. When everyone went up for Communion I pulled down the kneeler and prayed. After the Mass was over and I was walking out I heard a voice "This is how I want you to worship me."
My conversion after that was not immediate. I resisted the call to convert for many years. I suppose it was my southern baptist upbringing and all the bad things I had been taught about Catholics stood in the way. And I was not living a very Christian lifestyle at the time. But each time I attended Mass either with friends or my wife (many years later) I had a calm peaceful feeling all over. I did finally finish my conversion process in 1988. We got our marriage blessed (my wife is a cradle Catholic) and I got to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation. (aka Confession). At that time I suffered nightmares every night that were caused by PTSD. But after my first confession I slept the entire night through for the first time in many many years.
I feel like that my relationship with Christ is now much closer than it ever was when I was growing up Baptist. The teachings of the Church really opened up my eyes and heart to a Christ that loves us and protects us.
Try this. When you do attend Mass look at faces of the people around you. Remember what they look like. The look at theses same faces after they receive Communion. Write back and tell us all what you saw.
I'm not a great Catholic mind or a highly educated Catholic. I do teach CCD or Sunday School at my parish. Each day I learn a little more about my faith and that helps me walk closer with Christ. The best advice I can give you about the Catholic Church is simple. Keep an open mind and heart.
Tarheel
Welcome Faycarol,
If you are interested in more conversion stories might I suggest www.chnetwork.org it is the Coming Home Network site an organization started by Marcus Grodi, a former Protestant minister, to help other Protestant ministers and lay folk who are looking into the Catholic Faith. He also hosts a show on EWTN television (www.ewtn.com) called The Journey Home as well as a radio show called Deep in Scripture. Both are available over the web, the second as mp3 downloads.
We are all glad to answer your questions here and can recommend many other good Internet sites to help inform you.
Dado
AMDG
Hi Faycarol, and welcome to the Catholic Church.
Please do not be afraid to ask questions here on this board, or of your priest, or of the other people in your parish.
Also a good idea is to listen to Catholic radio or watch Catholic Tv network EWTN.
Good luck in your search for Truth.
God Bless,
| Report on Catholic-Baptist Relations |
| Mons. John A. Radano Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity |
Tackling differences with a cordial spirit The Baptist World Alliance (BWA), with headquarters in Falls Church, Virginia (near Washington, D.C., U.S.A.), embraces about 40 million baptized members. Since Baptists traditionally baptize only those who are able to make a personal confession of faith, when one adds children in Baptist families, the number would be closer to 100 million. However, the Southern Baptist Convention in the U.S.A., numbering about 16 million baptized members, recently left the BWA. The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Baptist World Alliance have had cordial relations for a long time. Over the years, the PCPCU and the BWA have invited each other to take part in important events in the other's life. There has been one phase of formal international dialogue between the Catholic Church and the BWA, 1984-88, which published a report entitled "Summons to Witness to Christ in Today's World" (1990). While the PCPCU expressed the wish to proceed immediately to a second phase of formal dialogue, that was not then feasible for the BWA. Therefore, in recent years, to ensure continuing contacts between the BWA and the PCPCU in the absence of formal dialogue, a series of informal two-day consultations have been held: in 2000 (Rome), 2001 (Buenos Aires), 2003 (Rome), and 2004 (Washington, D.C.). With the exception of the first, in which the Baptist delegation consisted of an international group, the others have emphasized a particular region of the BWA and of the Catholic Church, though still co-sponsored by the BWA and PCPCU; Thus, in 2001 the Latin America region, in 2003 the European region, 2004 the North America region. Issues and areas of divergence These consultations have addressed important theological issues and excellent presentations have been made. In Buenos Aires the theme was "The Church as Koinonia"; in Rome (2003) two themes were discussed: the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, and the Petrine Ministry. The most recent consultation in Washington, D.C., focused again on two themes: "Baptism: Entrance to the Church", and "Mary in the Life of the Church", to which we will come back shortly. Some of these issues are precisely those which the 1990 report indicated as areas needing continued exploration in future dialogue. That report identified specific issues on which Catholics and Baptists tend to differ, such as: "the shape of koinonia", mentioning that this includes for Catholics the role of the Bishop of Rome, the relationship between "Faith, Baptism and Christian witness", and "the place of Mary in faith and practice". These consultations have initiated discussion on these issues and have highlighted a certain degree of shared understanding on them. The brevity of treatment of these topics in the limited time available and the unofficial nature of the consultations, however, preclude the drafting and publication of a detailed report of findings. Nonetheless, some of the excellent papers presented at the meetings have been published by their authors, and therefore can receive a wider circulation. Baptism as entrance to the Church To return now to the most recent meeting, the consultation in Washington, D.C., considered first the theme of "Baptism: Entrance to the Church". Papers were given by Dr Barry Morrison (Canadian Baptist Ministries) and Sr Susan Wood, SCL (Department of Theology, St. John's University, Collegeville, Minnesota). As is well known a major difference between Baptists and Catholics concerns infant baptism, with Baptists insisting that a personal confession of faith is required before baptism. Thus, one of the issues which came up in both papers was the relationship between baptism and the Church. Sr Wood put it in this way: "The ecumenical issue may not be the necessity of faith for the reception of baptism, but the relative emphasis on individual faith versus the faith of the church in our respective traditions. Roman Catholics consider all the sacraments as forms of liturgical prayer. Liturgical prayer is first the public, official prayer of the Church, rather than the prayer of a private individual. In the profession of faith within liturgical prayer, the 'I' of 'I believe' is not only the individual, but the whole Church professing its belief". Dr Barry Morrison's approach to the theme was very liturgical, which, he said, was not the usual Baptist approach. But on the question of ecclesiology he said: "While baptism necessarily concerns an individual..., it is the communal nature of the sacrament that demands our consideration. What has sometimes been less clear in actual practice among Baptists... is the extent to which baptism signals ongoing incorporation into the body of Christ.... "Preference for the word 'ordinance' instead of 'sacrament' most often suggests an emphasis on the individual's response to the command of Christ. In most cases, little attention is given to what Christ does in baptism, or to the role of the Church". Morrison continued, however, saying that "there are Baptist liturgies which emphasize the ecclesial and sacramental nature of baptism", and went on to illustrate this. Indeed, the participants saw many convergences between the Catholic and Baptist presentations. Nonetheless, the question of their different views of the Church, and the relationship of this to baptism, remains a major issue that needs to be faced in order to achieve greater convergence on our respective views of baptism. Mariology in Catholic tradition Regarding the theme of "Mary in the Life of the Church", Sr Sara Butler gave the first of two papers entitled "The Blessed Virgin Mary, God-Bearer, in the Mystery of Christ and the Church", and Dr Timothy George, Dean of Beeson Divinity School, discussed "The Blessed Virgin Mary in the Evangelical Perspective". His presentation was based on a chapter he has written for a newly published book on Mary with contributions from Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Disciples of Christ and Evangelical perspectives. His approach showed a renewed Evangelical openness to and interest in Mary. While not agreeing with all aspects of Mariology in the Catholic tradition, especially the two dogmatic formulations, Dr George's essay showed changes from the negative Evangelical positions on Mary of the past. His paper was followed by Sara Butler's second presentation, "The Dogmas of Mary's Immaculate Conception and Glorious Assumption". She treated the two dogmas as a "pair", under the following topics: their origin in liturgical celebration; the question of reliable historical evidence; biblical sources: Paul and the Old Testament; victory of grace; doxological function; and the manner of definition. Some of the Baptists indicated the need for Baptists to pay more attention to Mary, for example, to the Biblical testimony about her. But it seems clear that, even with the renewed interest in Mary in Evangelical circles, this is still a neuralgic ecumenical issue. It still seems to many Baptists that Catholics give too much attention to Mary in a way that lessens the attention which must be given to Christ. The meeting was co-chaired by Bishop Brian Farrell, Secretary of the PCPCU, and Dr Denton Lotz, General Secretary of the BWA. Although these two-day informal consultations do not aim at a common detailed report as a formal phase of dialogue would, they nonetheless serve a good interim purpose of keeping the two communions in touch with each other. But one can hope that a more formal second phase of international Catholic-Baptist dialogue can begin soon, taking up the issues over which there is disagreement in a more intense and in-depth fashion. |
Y, thanks for that.
I had to look up koinonia:- Christian fellowship or communion with God or with fellow Christians; said in particular of the early Christian community up. (The Free Dictionary by Farlex)
Dado
AMDG
dado, I read that the early Christian communities gathered all that each one earned then shared that with all.
I also read that the original concept of communism was taken from Christianity. Unfortunately for much of the world, communism was distorted by men greedy for power.
Democracy had the same beginning which was communal living for the betterment of all and it also to this day is distorted by men greedy for power.
That is why the Kingdom of God is our only refuge from the greed of this world. Many religious men and women sought and still do seek the Kingdom where there is no greed although this is difficult to find on earth....
In order to find the Kingdom of God which is koinonia, one must die.....to self. Very few consider that Jesus Christ had no where to lay his head.
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Hi faycarol
There are a lot of similarities and a lot of differences between Catholics and Baptists. I know thi because I was born and raised Baptist and have been a Baptist all of my life until Easter Vigil 2005, when I was received into the Roman Catholic Church. I now teach Adult formation and theology classes and RCIA at my parish.
As a former Baptist, I am proud to say that the Bible brought me into the fullness of the Catholic Church.
A couple differences are the Mass and the sacraments, although there are others as well such as sola scriptura and sola fida.
In terms of the worship Catholics and Baptists differ because Baptists have no sense of the liturgy (the greatest prayer given to the church). The Catholic sense of worship is both a communal and universal prayer through the liturgy (the mass) and is divided into the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the Eucharist). Baptist worship style is often comprised on singing some hymnals or worship songs and a "power sermon" with communion not taking place on a regular basis.
In terms of the sacraments, Catholics believe that graces are received through the sacraments which is very real. In receiving the sacraments, Christ is bestowing graces upon us. The 7 sacraments of the Catholic Church are very deeply rooted in scripture. Baptist are non-sacramental Christians. Although they acknowledge the sacraments in their traditions, the "sacraments" to Baptists are merely "symbolic" gestures only.
One area where there is agreement is in the area of justification. Both Catholics and Baptists believe that we are justified through faith and grace, which as I noted above, we receive graces through the sacraments. The biggest stumbling block in the area of justification is moreso in the area of language.
What I would reccommend is to listen with caution to what non-catholics say about the Catholic Church in the same way you would if a non-Baptist tells you what Baptists believe. Rather, let the Catholic Church speak for herself. The way that worked for me is to study the Cathecism of the Catholic Church, with the Bible next to you, especially in the area's where you have the most questions or struggle the most. Sometimes we need to be able to cut through the "anti-catholic fog" to be able to see the beauty of the Church in it's fullness.
As a Catholic fired up for the faith, I'd be happy to try and answer more of your questions and dialogue with you, if you'd like. Just let me know. By the way, my whole family are still Baptists and I love the Baptists dearly!
Rome Sweet Home!!!
PAX Christi
Catalina22
The difference of Catholic and Baptist is the way of worship to their god.
But their way of worship both of them is non-Biblical. They try to use the Bible but they don't Understand even follow the Biblical Truth.
Both of them are Liar....
II Timothy 4:3-4
for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers , having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
svangerpen
As a former Baptist, I am proud to say that the Bible brought me into the fullness of the Catholic Church.
As a Former Catholic, I am very Proud to say that the Bible brought me Out into the Fool-ness of Catholic Church.
Can I ask you something Mr. Svangerpen...
what happen to the 2nd and 3rd Ten Commandments of God written in the Bible? and it is also written in New Testaments about the Graven Images and the way of worship written in I Timothy 4:1-4. Did Catholic Church really Understand the Bible?
I am really disappoint to the Doctrines and the way of Worship in Catholic Church, they copy the pagans worship.
And can you Explain the Meaning Of "Vicarius Filii Dei" wriiten in Roman Numbers at Triple Tiara of Vatican Pope and the Bible Prophecy in Revelation 13:16-18 and Revelation 14:9
KenB
Please do not be afraid to ask questions here on this board, or of your priest, or of the other people in your parish.
Also a good idea is to listen to Catholic radio or watch Catholic Tv network EWTN.
Good luck in your search for Truth.
can I ask u about anything in this board because I am not afraid to ask you. I am searching for truth and I want u to answer me using the Bible only as we use as a reference. may be you help me here.
1st question
I found 28 verses in the Bible about Graven Image from Old Testaments to Revelations, why to many graven Image inside the Catholic churches and they worship it like God also?
2nd question
there are 7 Holy Spirits of God sent forth into all Earth. Revelation 5:6
One Jesus Christ a Man and Mediator between God and Men, John 8:40 and 1 Timothy 2:5
One God, Creator and God of Christ. Num. 23:19, Isaiah 44:24 Matthew 27:50, Revelation 1:18 and Even Devil believe in One God. James 2:19
total of 9. were trinity began and what verse in the Bible?
mkochan
thanks for asking me..
think about this. Bible contains Old and New Testaments. and almost unnumbered of generations who wrote it 1188 verses.
Its like building of House, many Carpenter but only 1 house to build.
all Prophets, Apostles are the carpenters and the Bible is the House.
its like communicating each other to build a Perfect House for God even their generation was too far.
and the Bible Statement is this in Matthew 24:34-35
Verily I say to you, this Generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and Earth shall pass away but my Words shall not pass away.
Hebrew 1:1-2
In the past God Spoke to our Ancestor, prophets and through His Son
Jer.30:1-2
God also told them to write down in a Book Everything He told.
which Book.. Holy Scriptures II Tim 3:15-17.. Useful for teaching, for reproof, correction and training for Holiness.
Hebrew 4:12
Gods word is living and Effective Sharper than any two edged sword, its penetrate and divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the reflections and thought of the heart.
Revelation 10:4
the writer was guided and guarded to avoid any mistake.
John 17:17
Bible testify only the truth
Isaiah 46:11
and the prophecy was happened (world War I and II)
Matthew 24:7-12
Hunger and false prophets
revelation 13:16-18
some of the testimony about the Anti Christ
Sparcz,
What is your understanding of where we got the Bible?
Why, for example, does the NT not include the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Sherpherd of Hermas, the Apocolypse of Peter, the Didache, the Gospel of Mary, and other books which were written and frequently read and used in various church liturgies in the first and second centuries?
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