Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life

What Century did just bread become

(118 posts)

1 2 3 4
bhokuto - Member

In what century and exact date did the Church stop serving wine to the congregation?


Thanks

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Not to nitpick, but words are important.

The Church never served wine to the congregation.

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

If you mean...

What century and exact date did the Church stop distributing Holy Communion under both species, then I would have to say, "I have no idea...but I'm sure someone will answer soon!"

 

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
you nit picked,

peace
Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive

bhokuto, I drink the Blood of Christ every day at mass. The church did not stop reception of the cup of the Blood of Christ. Individual priest in parishes where the Blood is not well received stop the reception in both forms of Bread and Wine, Body and Blood. The catechism outlines the doctrine of faith defining Christ as present in either form of Body or Blood and so a person attending mass may receive in either form to be considered as having received Christ if exclusively drinking the Blood or exclusively eating the Body.

Many churches in the Eastern Rite in communion with the Vatican use a method of coummunion where the Bread is cubed then soaked in Blood/Wine. The Priest spoons the Body from the Blood then places the cubed Body onto the tongue of the Catholic faithful.

Also, some Catholic Priests dip the Body into the Blood/Wine slightly then place the Body onto the tongue.

You may ask your parish priest to allow you the great honor of receiving the Body and the Blood at once. If he denies your request ask the Bishop to intercede for you or find another parish that will commune both the Body and Blood [usually the Eastern Rites almost always commune both the Body and the Blood].

The reason the communion has sometimes been reduced to only the Body of Christ is because of the faint-heartedness of some who are concerned that germs may be transferred through drinking from the common cup of Blood. The church has accomodated the faint-hearted. I am not faint nor do I believe you are faint so why not seek a parish that will allow you to eat from the Bread of Life then drink deeply from the cup of Eternal Salvation?

 In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Y,

thank you.

The exact century and date is needed to correspond a theory, but all in good time.

At the last supper, Christ dipped the bread into the wine and gave it to Judas, and said "go quickly".   Some think this to be a sign and do not offer wine for blood.  Fear.  

The elements of bread and wine are not transubstantiated until the Priest conscerates them, or blesses them, or calls upon the Lord.

I think it strange that the Gospels present the Last Supper, but the Church does not follow exactly to the letter what Christ said to DO.
Does not follow suit, does not imitate.  And we accept the lame excuses
given by mans reasoning.  lack of trust and faith.  Fear.

This is Where the Heads of the Church err.  If they err here where else do they err?  This is where Intellectual reasoning fails everytime.  Disbelief.  Oh ye of little Faith says the Lord.  I am guilty as charged.

Amen.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Bobo, Christ didn't dip the bread into the wine. In response to the apostle who asked," who will betray you Jesus?", He answered, "the one who dips his bread in the bowl will betray me.{paraphrase}

In Christ,

David

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

I found this. May be interesting for you to read:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT22.HTM

 

to answer your question, research seems to indicate around 1274 for various reasons; practical convenience, the danger of spilling the Precious Blood, distaste for the practice and the danger of the spreading of disease...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
Alyosha9570 - Inactive

TrentForever

     I came across something recently that may apply.  Originally, both the bread and wine were distributed, but as St. Paul indicated in his

chastisement of the Corinthians (about getting drunk) there were dangers and abuses, people like Simon Magus trying to buy the "secrets"

of the faith... etc...  But the interesting point I came accross is that the

wine was not regularly used up to the time of the Manichean heresy, but because the manichees refjected wine as impure and could be identified by their refusal to drink it when they tried to infiltrate the Eucharistic service for their hidden agendas, the wine did come into gernerally widespread use in areas where the heresy appeared.  This continued for quite a while until hygienic and other reasons caused the Church to distribute the bread alone and that somewhat in a limited manner due to other exigencies. ,Then, the precursors of the Reformation (13-14th Cent.) complained

because these early reformers protested that the Catholic Church was not fulfilling the teaching of Christ as given in the New Testament where bread AND wine are clearly mentioned.  The Catholic Church, in order to emphasize that after the epiclesis and the words of institution -SPOKEN

BY AN ORDAINED PRIEST- THE BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, AND DIVINITY WERE TRULY, REALLY, SUBSTANTIAL;LY, PRESENT UNDER THE APPEARANCE OF BREAD AND WINE and in each and every particle of each species,. whether the bread or the wine.  To prove the point the

Church generally distributed only the consecrated bread to the laity and

it is still valid to receive only the bread.  Vat II reintroduced the chalice to the laity.   Hope this helps....

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Sounds like Men are being men and fearful of disease.  Devil has been having fun.  If the wine conscretated truly is the Blood of Christ, and His Blood is FROM HEAVEN AND NOT EARTH the BLOOD IS PURE.
IT IS GODS BLOOD.

Isaiah,  He bore our sickness and disease.  He was bruised for our inquities. He took upon himself the punishment for all mankind,

and when we do not recognize the gravity
of HIS BLOOD we spit in HIS FACE!!!!!  

In this case where they argue about sicknes and disease, is truly FAITHLESS and a Sacrilege to Christ BLOOD.  Shame shame shame.

Now the Gospels we recite on ThE Luminous Mystery,  Institution of the Eucharist

Taking bread and giving thanks he broke it and gave to his disciples, saying this is my  BODY which is given for YOU.

Likewise the Cup after supper saying, this Cup which is poured out for you is the New Convenant in My Blood.  

How in the world can they reason the BODY AND BLOOD SOUL AND DIVINTY is the Bread alone?  Non-sense.  This is not Christ Teaching.  Read the Gospel again and again pertaining to the Last Supper.

Genesis: Cain kills abel and verse says the Blood of Abel cries out from the earth.

I can understand the reasoning that the Body houses the Blood, but lets take a look
at Divine Mercy.  Oh, Blood and water which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus, as
a fount of Mercy for us, I trust in you.

No blood, no Heart of Jesus.

Amen Amen Amen.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
There's a definite Message about Divine Mercy that is more to what meets
the eye.  Rays of Graces in the form of Blood and Water.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive

bhokuto, Yes it is hypocritical that those who receive the Body of Christ are fearful of germs. Christ said it is not what enters a man that defiles, it is what proceeds from the heart that defiles. You may ask your priest to serve the Blood of Christ also with the Body of Christ.

You must understand bhokuto, we on this forum do not create church doctrine, that is done at the Vatican by the Pope and college of Cardinals. I hope you do not think that we will side with you in this matter to declare the Body of Christ invalid without the Blood. You are not the Pope so you will have an inability to convince anyone that you are correct on the matter of Body and Blood only as Christ. Christ is present in either the Body or the Blood as declared by the Vatican. .In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
oh,

I thought you were the one to make the change?  Ah, whatever
you should see "Christ minded" rather than "Church Minded"  Because
if you've read yesterdays Reading, the Current Church will be moved to another location where God has always Planted.

We have a voice in the Church this is good place as any to get some feedback.  Last time I checked the Bible, We're supposed to be subject
one to another, he who is greatest should serve, he who is least should be greatest.  I don't see this.

I agree with many religious clergy that the Church needs to be reformed.
There's way too many idealistic clergy not in union.  They misuse the Holy Orders.   But that's to be expected since if you take a look at the history of the Church there's has always been disagreements over issues.

Can we get along for once?  Maybe Christ would be able to return?
But, as it is written Zion is where God will reign from.  Israel.

Yesterdays Reading:

Joel 4:12-21

Thus says the LORD:
Let the nations bestir themselves and come up
to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there will I sit in judgment
upon all the neighboring nations.

Apply the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe;
Come and tread,
for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow,
for great is their malice.
Crowd upon crowd
in the valley of decision;
For near is the day of the LORD
in the valley of decision.
Sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars withhold their brightness.
The LORD roars from Zion,
and from Jerusalem raises his voice;
The heavens and the earth quake,
but the LORD is a refuge to his people,
a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Then shall you know that I, the LORD, am your God,
dwelling on Zion, my holy mountain;
Jerusalem shall be holy,
and strangers shall pass through her no more.
And then, on that day,
the mountains shall drip new wine,
and the hills shall flow with milk;
And the channels of Judah
shall flow with water:
A fountain shall issue from the house of the LORD,
to water the Valley of Shittim.
Egypt shall be a waste,
and Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall abide forever,
and Jerusalem for all generations.
I will avenge their blood,
and not leave it unpunished.
The LORD dwells in Zion.


Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive

bhokuto, Youre starting in the wrong place to change the church, CE forum has no platform to create change. You need to go to your Bishop who has influence on the Pope and Vatican. If any change in the Catholic church is to occur, the change has to come from the Pope.

All you can accomplish on this forum is to express an opinion and hope that you are heard. According to what I have experienced so far, no one on this forum will give you  more than one or two moments of attention.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

yanastrovich - the honor of tincicture ( the intermixing of blood and body by dipping) is reserved to the priest within the roman right.  It would be inapproriate for a lay person to ask for it and a sin for the priest to grant the request, because the priest would be breaking his vow of obediance.

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
I'm not sure if this helps but my suspicion is that the custom ( which was never law as far as I know , but only allowed) started in around the 9th century when large numbers of people did not take communion regularly because they felt unworthy and did not want to do the required fasting. The second vatican concile STRONGLY engourged the distribution of the eucharist under both species.
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Bobo, The Church does not reason that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is the Bread alone! The Church teaching is that Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in both the Precious Blood and the Eucharist. Hypostasis is a term used to help describe the mystery that is the Real Presence. One meaning of the word is the substance or essential nature of an individual.

Now, back to the Chalice that contains the Precious Blood of Jesus. It is not unreasonable to understand that there is a great potential for disease to spread from making contact with the Chalice after an inflicted person has made contact with the same. If a person had a cold and drank from a bottle of water, wiped the brim and offered you a drink, would it be prudent for you to accept? The water itself may not be contaminated but the vessel may be.

Also, I will not state that therein lies the main reason for withholding the Chalice from the faithful. Wealth of the parish, especially in the medieval and subsequent ages leading to today, geographical region as well as an individual pastors desire to do so form a large part of the decision making that was given back to the parishes post Vatican II.

The Church does not see a supposed "dipping of the bread into the wine" at the Last Supper as a reason to withhold the Precious Blood, those reasons have already been addressed at various synods throughout history. You would do well to make yourself aware of these proceedings as it concerns the topic you are discussing.

The Church follows precisely Jesus' commandment to, "do this in remembrance of me." When Jesus fed the five thousand as a precursor to the Eucharistic banquet that He would provide after His death and resurrection did He provide something to drink? Jesus' Blood is present in the consecrated host and when you eat His Body you do indeed drink His Blood. This is the Church teaching. This is the faith of our fathers.

In closing, the popes and magesterium of today and years past do not err, it is you who errs, Bobo, in choosing to be ignorant to the teachings available and your wanton refusal to accept the same.

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
 David T Garrison - when it comes to sharing the chalice I would like to point out two things. 1)    even by the natural properties of alcohol present in wine most disease are destroyed by it.  This is entirely neglecting the supernatural properties of the Eucharist that far outreach any natural properties.2)     There has never been a documented case of disease spread by use of a common chalice. My suspicion is that the reason the common chalice was not in use in much of the west , especially the united states has more to do with varying persecutions and the difficulty of producing wine. If you only have access to 1 bottle of wine and want to perform mass for the next month how would you do it?  We often times today in the united states don’t baptize in flowing water because the American church takes a great deal from the Irish church , which had to perform mass and then vanish for many years under English persecution.   So I doubt there is any one reason but spreading of diseased is probably very least on the list if it can be included at all.  

 

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

I realize the wikipedia is not the best of sources but here is a link expaling the question asked fairly well.

It has refrences can anyone find some more first hand sources that are online?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_under_both_kinds

 

according to the article communion under both speices was still in use but fallin out of favor byt 1249 and seems to have completely dissapered by 1400 or so .  It was restored in full by the second vatican concil.

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

fishman - check out this link and tell me what you think...

http://books.google.com/books?id=jL4U3xIpx7YC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=withholding+the+chalice&source=web&ots=HrGM1iStuC&sig=VjNIOZDbz35LugBWGNQxAb4NAK4

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

fishman - welcome back. Are you willing to state emphatically that sharing a vessel to drink the Blood of Christ from can in no way spread a communicable disease?

 

I would not state so emphatically without statistican proof, I do believe such to be true in faith , not withstanding some stronger evidence I might encounter.

 

Do you know of a documented case were a desease was transmitted through the chalice.

 

The alchol alone should kill the common cold and most bacteria, but I really don't have enough science to back that up , nor to I know of not study that was ever done.  It is simply my suspicion.

 

I'm certainly open to whatever evidence for the topic might be avialbe that I have not yet encountered.

 

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

fishman - welcome back. Are you willing to state emphatically that sharing a vessel to drink the Blood of Christ from can in no way spread a communicable disease? As far as spreading disease, I did not conclude this but it was during research that I found this remark. I will post here when I find it.

Secondly, I made mention of wealth of a parish, geographical location as well as a pastor's inclination. Possibly it was an oversight.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

fishman - I know of no documented case, just relying on common sense. I am not stating you can get ill from the Blood but from the residue of disease that may be left on the Chalice.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

I would trust in faith that such would not happen.

If I had an allergy to gluten I would continue to take the eucharist until I had seen for myself that it specifically caused a reaction , because I do not believe it is the same as bread once concercated.

 

This is my personal faith , it is not science, I have no support for it besides the principle of trusting unreservadly in God.

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
Christopher: The substance of the Eucharistic Matter has changed from that of bread to that of God, but the accident of bread remains, that is, it still "behaves" as bread would (Eucharistic miracles, excepted (and accepted)). Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive
fishman, You are incorrect concerning tincture. Show me your proofs other than stating a discriminating opinion. Print me the documented Canon that states a priest may not tincture.In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

fishman- on the allergy, you would have the reaction and suffer its consequences unless there was a miracle...see Michael's post

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

From the GIRM on the USCCB site:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml

49. Holy Communion may be distributed by intinction in the following manner: "the communicant, while holding the paten under the chin, approaches the priest who holds the vessel with the hosts and at whose side stands the minister holding the chalice. The priest takes the host, intincts the particle into the chalice and, showing it, says: 'The Body and Blood of Christ.' The communicant responds, 'Amen,' and receives the Sacrament on the tongue from the priest. Afterwards, the communicant returns to his or her place." (53)

50. The communicant, including the extraordinary minister, is never allowed to self-communicate, even by means of intinction. Communion under either form, bread or wine, must always be given by an ordinary or extraordinary minister of Holy Communion.

Maybe fishman was misunderstood, or maybe he misunderstood.  I understood fishman to mean that intinction is something only the priest (or deacon) can do.  The above proves this is correct.  Only the priest (or deacon) can intinct the sacred host into the blood - for himself or for the communicants. 

Far too often I see extraordinary ministers or even people coming up to receive communion intincting, which is a grave mistake.

Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive
Ipioch, fishman is saying that it is improper for a lay person to ask for communion in the form of tincture. I am saying it is not improper to ask a priest for anything, it is up to the priest to oblige or deny the request. It is not improper to receive communion in the form of tincture in any event providing the communicant is properly confessed.In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

Hmm... intresting, I had been told that intinction was reserved to the priest.  I hadn't realized that after the priest intinted the eucharist he could give it to a communicant, but that makes sense.

I've never seen it done though.

 

Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.

Donate

Welcome to our redesigned site. Your continued support will make further improvements possible. Please click here to donate.

CE Spotlight

Faith Factory

Champions of Faith Ad

Radio & Podcasts


Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge