Make Christianity Believable « Catholic Exchange Forums

noelfitz - Member

There seems to be few discussions going on at present. I should start a really controversial argument to get things going.

Let me tell you about what our priest said at Mass, some days ago on the Feast of St Justin.

He mentioned that with Justin a huge change came in the Church, it began to focus on philosophy (Platonism). The priest said he did not see himself as an ascetic or a spiritual adviser, but as one who has always tried to make the Church believable, not to force people to believe, but to let them know that it is not stupid to believe.

He mentioned from the altar that now many people believe “any bloody nonsense, in spite of their great education they seem to be without a brain at all”.

He quoted the pastor who the previous Sunday quoted the (Protestant) Archbishop of Canterbury who also claimed he saw his job as making Christianity believable. We are ecumenical!

At the sign of peace the priest said to the extraordinary ministers that he always wanted to go to heaven, but is deferring it for as long as he can.

Why don’t more contribute to CE?

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

I'll take this comment:

"He mentioned from the altar that now many people believe any bloody nonsense, in spite of their great education they seem to be without a brain at all."

Education was the big deal for many years. Now with the Electronic Technology age, ET for short, the brain has been absorbed and hijacked by the false light.

As a kid some older friends used to make fun of us lesser children by humiliating us with puny jokes. So I'll use one that comes to mind concerning this: The older more wiser would put his hand on the youngers head making like an octopuss and "say this is a brainsucker, too bad it's starving". Well, that's what's happened today out there. The electronics have sucked our brains dry -- expression.

In reality it has absorbed our thoughts filling it with false light. The light of course has all the nice trimmings of vice, "you need this new gadget to go along with that because you can do more." The catch phrase being YOU, I, focusing on you to stay bogged down and stuck in the world of illusion which is jail to the mind. Not being able to see the true light. Being set free to grow and bound in Wisdom of God. Becoming more intelligent more able more more more up up up. God is all Wisdom and all Knowledge this is what man needs. Not being alienated in some illusion.

People minds have knowledge, but their souls are empty. Their filling the void the best they can and, knowledge is what they're after to fill the soul, searching. Every soul is looking to be fully satisfied in something not knowing intellectually they are looking for God. Until one is reborn, regenerated there is a disconnect between soul and intellect. The soul is wandering traveling in a body saying where's God, where's God, but the body it's in, is hard of hearing. Because of the knowledge it received. Warring.

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

I read your post.

I am concerned. I do not know much about my religion so I may be completely wrong.

Your views seem to me to reflect Protestant Calvinistic/Lutheran pessimism, that man is evil.

You write The soul is wandering traveling in a body. To me man is made up of body and soul, both good and created by God.

Education is good, ET is good, man is good. He is the temple of the Holy Spirit, made in the image and likeness of God.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #

royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear Noel, You obviously have to deal with a priest who uses some very dubious language to make his expressions of faith poignant. In the first place it is not necessary to refer to anyone as brainless especially when speaking as representative of Christ as the scriptures refer to "call no man a fool". I appreciate your choice of controversial example used to show the dilemma currently endured in this day of the Catholic Church which to me seems to be subversion of the faith from within. In order to be faithful we all need to be thoughtful through discussion of what we believe in order to arrive at the truth of faith. As you point out with your parish pastor, not every statement one makes is necessarily faithful and can in fact be subversive of faith. The scriptures advise that we pray with and for one another so that no one may be deceived. Your observations of your parish priest would benefit him the most if you were able to discuss your concerns directly with him. You may actually affect him spiritually and yourself to a greater good. What do you think? May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back and may the Lord hold you in the palm of His hand unti we meet again.

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

I really think you miss the point.

This priest is excellent, completely faithful to the Church and very conscientious. I really admire him. He has a wonderful facility with words, and avoids pompous phrases. He communicates a love of the Church and of God in a very accessible way.

In this parish there are three wondeful and saintly priests.

The pastor is a writer and scholar. Please see Amazon for a list of his very many books http://www.amazon.com/Dixie-Looks-Abroad-Relations-1789-1973/dp/B0008E0NU0/ref=sr_1_3/104-1550043-9123902?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180897179&sr=1-3

The priest I refer to is a former pastor.

I am sorry if I have ever said anything to indicate that he is not a most effective communicator and priest

The third priest in the parsh is an elderly man, who has a brilliant apostolate in the confessional.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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PS: Our bishop is also a wonderful communicator, who is honest and faces up to the problems besetting his archdiocese. NF

Posted 1 year ago #

HomeschoolNfpDad - Member

Justin Martyr was a Greek philosopher who found that the Christian belief was consistent and coherent with the philosophy he had learned outside the Church. His profession was that he was convinced of the reality of Christianity because it was the best philosophical argument. He may have molded that argument into the scope of his understanding. But he did not invent the argument. He was convinced by it, much as GK Chesterton was convinced by it. Chesterton writes in Orthodoxy that his journey towards Faith was akin to that of a British sea captain who, losing his bearings after leaving port was turned around to land back on Britain, believing that he had discovered a new island in the South Seas. His point was that independent of Christianity, he had discovered a certain set of truths and then was astonished to find out that Christians had already found these truths, written them up, speculated about them, expounded on them theologically, and then attempted, somewhat ineptly, to put them into practice. Justin Martyr’s discovery of the Faith (he was a convert) seems to follow similar lines (from NewAdvent.org):

His chief argument, and one calculated to convert this hearers as it had converted him (II Apol., xii), is the great new fact of Christian morality. He speaks of men and women who have no fear of death (I Apol., ii, xi, xlv; II, ii; Dial., xxx), who prefer truth to life (I Apol., ii; II, iv) and are yet ready to await the time allotted by God (II, iv1); he makes known their devotion to their children (I, xxvii), their charity even towards their enemies, and their desire to save them (I Apol., lvii; Dial., cxxxiii), their patience and their prayers in persecution (Dial., xviii), their love of mankind (Dial., xciii, cx). When he contrasts the life that they led in paganism with their Christian life (I Apol., xiv), he expresses the same feeling of deliverance and exaltation as did St. Paul (1 Corinthians 6:11).

Much of this follows the Platonic ideal, particularly as expressed in the works (such as the Phaedo) which recount the death of Socrates: Truth is worth sacrificing one’s life for, if that sacrifice is offered freely. You won’t see Socrates pushing his friends towards martyrdom, nor does he seek it outhimself; he merely accepts it himself as the price to be paid for Truth when all other avenues are exhaused. This is entirely consistent with St. Paul's own martyrdom. Paul did not shrink from the Truth, but he also did not shrink from arguing through the Roman legal system in defense of his life.

So Justin Martyr is indeed convinced by the arguments of Faith and through those arguments he comes to a much deeper Faith than what can be sustained by mere intellectualism. But the intellectual opens a perfectly valid door for him which the great saint then attempts to open up for those who follow after. Like a door, being intellectually convinced was a good starting point and a particularly good starting point within the Greek culture that placed such a high value on philosophy. But unlike gnosticism, which also flourished at the time, Justin Martyr sought to share his Faith. Where gnosticism saw a privileged secret, Justin Martyr saw a valid argument that had to be shared and then deepened beyond the merely intellectual.

So your parish priest’s homiletic is actually a sound one: argument is traditionally a positive element, not a negative one. Being convinced by good and sound argument has traditionally been understood to be a sign of a healthy person. One real problem of our time is that significant parts of the broader culture denigrate anyone who is convinced by the argument of Faith. The fact that many are also denigrated by accepting the Faith through the initial door of being emotionally, spiritually, or corporally convinced is not contradicted by the fact that they are also denigrated when they accept Faith through the use of Reason.

Now Jesus calls all of us to love God not merely with the mind nor merely with the heart nor merely with the soul nor merely with the body but completely and integrally with all four at once (Jesus’s own words to the young man who inquired about the Greatest Commandment). But we are very fallible humans, and even to the extent that we are competent, we generally can begin to understand things just a bit at a time. It is perfectly alright to start at pondering the Faith through intellectual argument - and such should be promoted and even lauded. It is not acceptable, however, to simply leave it at that and move on.

Posted 1 year ago #

AlvinaL - Inactive

homeschoolingnfpdad,

This is an excellent and very interesting post. The Holy Spirit reveals the Truth and the virtue of wisdom to those who search and listen for the Truth. Catholic seminarians study philosophy before they begin the study of theology.

Have a wonderfully blessed day.

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

I think I am a bit old for hero worship, but I think the priest I refer to is absolutely fantastic.

Today he concelebrated Mass with the elderly priest.

1. He said he was offering the Mass for an engaged couple, while the elderly priest was offering it for dead people. He reminded us that the Church has concern for those at the end of their lives and those starting off a new life.

2. He told us we were celebrating the lives of St Charles and his companions and told us about the “tortured country Uganda”, even his choice of adjectives is careful.

3. He explained to us the book of Tobit, telling us that the Bible contains many different types of books, including stories as in Tobit.

4. Tobit is about the sanctity of married love and family and the importance of respecting the dead.

5. He told us that one of the corporal works of mercy is respecting and burying the dead, and the Church has always remembered this.

6. He prayed for those whom we incorrectly call the dead. They can help us and we can help those in purgatory.

7 He pointed out that God gave Himself fully to the priest in the Eucharist, and he gives himself partially to God. The priest prayed that in the few years left to him he would give himself more to God and be more generous.

These ideas are surely wonderful and full of deep encouragement, yet I have given a negative opinion of a man I admire and respect immensely.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #

michaelme - Member

Noel:
I have to second HSNFPD.
Further to bhokuto's point (I think), Twenty-first Century man is too often convinced by "sound-byte" thinking rather than seeking a truth or even a rational answer. In that sense, one may be well-educated (having attained an advanced degree by regurgitation) yet "seem to be without a brain at all."
We see that, too, on this site at times, when someone will try to "prove" a point that Catholicism or post-Vatican II Catholicism is not Christian or that God intends that the races be separated or that we are somehow not doing (as a Church) what the Holy Spirit wants. This person will attempt an argument by throwing out a "convincing" Scriptural passage or sentance from an encyclical without taking the trouble to understand content or context and, much of the time, without recourse to even a shadow of logic. And one needn't be a trained logician to that they "seem to be without a brain at all." Often, the thinking seems to be too much trouble.
I'm curious why you think this a controversial post?
Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

Michaelme

many thanks for your post.

I think the point the priest makes is that to believe in God is reasonable and to reject him is not.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

dado - Member

I didn't really see the controversy in your original post but I did sense a certain wry humor in your priest. So to me you didn't leave a negative impression of him. It is refreshing to hear of a priest who doesn't always mince words.

Dado

A.M.D.G.

Posted 1 year ago #

pouliot - Member

To: royal osiodhachain

RE: "a priest who uses some very dubious language to make his expressions of faith poignant. In the first place it is not necessary to refer to anyone as brainless especially when speaking as representative of Christ as the scriptures refer to "call no man a fool". I appreciate your choice of controversial example used to show the dilemma currently endured in this day of the Catholic Church which to me seems to be subversion of the faith from within. "

I think there is a certain loss in reading someone's description of their experience that is unavoidable. I do not understand the described encounter the way you may have. Many people do act as if they are quite brainless when it comes to what they believe and how they behave. Such language can be used to try to awaken such people to what they are overlooking in the repertoire of sense experience available to all who take the time to reflect.

Regards,: Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)
P.S. thread seems to be having its desired effect.

Posted 1 year ago #

michaelme - Member

Noel: Thanks for the clarification. The title and quote made me focus on Church v. God. Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

As there are not too many discussions in CE at present, may I mention some points raised by this priest I write about?

Today at Mass he discussed the following.

St Boniface was an English saint, known as the patron of Germany, who was martyred in the present Holland.
St Patrick was totally different from St Boniface. Patrick “baptized” pagan customs, while Boniface destroyed them, such as cutting down sacred oaks. There is a lot to be said for Patrick’s approach.
He again explained that the book of Tobit is a short story to encourage society, community and family. It shows us how to survive in an alien culture.
Tobit’s wife told him “to catch himself on”.
The difference between Church and State was unknown in the ancient world. Everything was judged in the light of God’s rule. (Gospel “render to Caesar…)
In the bidding prayers he prayed for families, which are happy, and those which are not especially when the unhappiness is caused by problems within people.
He thanked God that we live in a country where we can have an influence on government and change it in a democratic way.
He ended the Mass with a long Celtic poem, where every line began with “Blessed be God for …”.

The Church was almost empty, on the right hand side in the first 20 rows there were less than 10 elderly people, yet this did not deter the priest from doing his best and giving good sound solid teaching. It is not his fault if the preaching is excellent and entertaining.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

NF: your post:

I am concerned. I do not know much about my religion so I may be completely wrong.

Your views seem to me to reflect Protestant Calvinistic/Lutheran pessimism, that man is evil.

You write The soul is wandering traveling in a body. To me man is made up of body and soul, both good and created by God.

Education is good, ET is good, man is good. He is the temple of the Holy Spirit, made in the image and likeness of God.

Michaelme thanks for your input.

I make my points:

Is God interested in your Soul? Then souls who do not believe in God -Jesus, Church and all the doctrines of Apostolic Faith are wandering searching to find God who it came from and there are demons who are wandering around looking for a host to occupy. Only God can regenerate a soul and no one knows when this happens. Other wise the soul is trapped in flesh.

Help me I need a quarter!

Parable: A soul who has been exorcised is now clean, the demon has been cast out, the demon cruising around in the desert says hey this lame, I'll go and find me 7 more of us and return to my former host. Making the latter worse.

Education is good only if it serves a good cause. There is bad education which serves selfish wants and ideals.

Education is good if it serves religion and that religion has to be a good religion.

ET is good only if it serves a good cause and that cause has to benefit for the good of all that they use it for the benefits of virtue and not vice(deeds). Gods supernatural uses. Your intellect was created for God not the other way around.

I think you missed the point of my post it does not say man is evil it says man has become evil by his deeds. Man was created good but the fact of the matter is he sinned and all after him were born in sin. To cleanse the sinner of sin, the sinner has to repent and be baptized to get rid of original sin. Then the sinner becomes a new creation in Christ. But really what happens is the sinner is restored to the Grace he lost. By the grace of God in Jesus Christ, man is given back his original uprightness prior to the disgrace. Until then the sinner is lost in sin and stained in sin.

Depending on the situation and circumstances, the evil a man does makes him evil. This is stated in the Bible. These are the words written by those who witnessed Christ's ministry, some were Apostles and some were disciples. If I took your car for a long drive without your permission, I did a bad thing. But if I took the car and ran over some kids with mal-intent, I did a bad thing and did evil, a few sins for confession. There is a difference between evil and bad though both is bad, one is greater. Definition of evil comes from God himself. And he shows us that evil is degreeable, lesser evil and greater evil.

The world today through the media, news and tv and other ET is/has learned barbaric ways at light speed. This knowledge dispersed over it's airwaves gives way to understanding evil. Wisdom is the sum product of knowledge and understanding. I see someone do a bad deed that did not have anything good result. If man had no knowledge of evil he would do evil ignorantly because the knowledge of evil was absorbed by Adam and passed down the gene pool, lack of understanding. On the other hand if the knowledge of evil did not exist there would be no evil. So vice which is evil has it's roots in the person and is running amuck.

What your priest is saying is hey wake up! Souls, rise to the level God has called you to! A higher calling. Philippians 3:14. You were blessed with an intellect use it.

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

As I said before I am concerned, as your views seem to be essentially Protestant. I may be wrong, so it is with great reservations that I make these comments.

Catholicism is essentially an optimistic religion, believing in the inherent goodness of humans. Protestantism (Luther/Calvin) is essentially pessimistic, believing that humans are evil.

America is essentially a Protestant country and the national mind-set is Protestant.

The Pilgrim Fathers and their puritan values have seeped into the American psyche.

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!

Also since the renaissance, through the age of enlightenment, reformation values have influenced modern people. Hence may of us are theologically Catholic, but psychologically Protestant.

You write:

Other wise the soul is trapped in flesh.

It is a Protestant idea that the soul is trapped in flesh. The Catholic idea is that man is made up of body and soul, both good. Jesus became true man, with a good body and soul. When He rose he had a body. We, body and soul, are made in the image and likeness of God. We, body and soul, are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Human beings are very good

God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good (Gen 1:31 NRSV).

You write

Education is good only if it serves a good cause.

Again I disagree. Education is good. You imply the end justifies the means. Catholic thinking would not agree.

I am afraid I cannot understand some things you write.

You write:

And he shows us that evil is degreeable, lesser evil and greater evil.

I am afraid I do not know what this means.

If I have misinterpreted you, please forgive me.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

I disagree with you. Education is either good or bad. What is education? It is knowledge. Is there only good knowledge? I don't think so. In fact I know so.

Virtue and vice and it won't go away. Vice will eventually go away once Satan is done away with. If I go to Franciscan University up North I have a good chance that I will learn good virtues along with some not so good ones. If I go to some university that does not believe in God or the Bible which is the case today because we are talking about current times not a general perfect idea which is not in this world.

To be Catholic is not optimistic(a worldly term) it is to believe in the Son of God to believe in Christ and what He passed on to the Apostles who passed on what they were taught, and witnessed. Succession. Not all teaching is essential and not all teaching is correct. Just because a person is ordained doesn't mean they are perfect, it just means they have been ordained they still have to grow and become like Christ they are not perfect yet. Priests perform a function which Christ ordained. The goal of every Christian who believes in Christ (that is what we must believe first), is to become like Jesus, imitators of Christ. Everyone is prone to error because the world is in error. This error is unavoidable because it is the way of life. To weed it out is what Christians are supposed to do.

To overcome the world and flesh: To overcome the world means to get rid of the vice. To overcome the flesh means to get rid of vice.

To believe in God is what Christ Teaches and so do the Apostles. Christ the Hope of Glory. The Bible tells us to believe in God and to believe in the Son of God and to believe anyone who believes in God and the Son of God. The Church is the mystical Body of Christ. It is not just your parish or the one next door. (geographical) It is not just the Catholic Church but those other denominated sects who broke off the body of Christ and have strayed from Apostolic Teaching.(unfathomable) These our our comrades who are in error. Have pity on them and pray for them. Once we become Catholics we belong to the Body of Christ the true Church. The Original Church which the Apostles began was one. Though the Baptists were around. And other Christians. We see this in the Gospel. This is used in denominated sects to base their error on. It's their truth because it's in the Bible.

Evil is degreeable: A lesser evil and a greater evil. Are there are venial sins and mortal sins? Both are sins (iniquity) but they are degreeable. Venial sins are lesser and mortal is greater. Is this correct? The Book of Deuteronomy which explains the degrees of sin and evil. A great evil was done when Satan seduced Eve(the result was catastrophic). A lesser evil was done when a man steals.

Denominated Christians are in fact Christians who have not the fullness of the Catholic Church; error: they have truth the Bible; first they believe in Jesus the first prerequisite to becoming a Christian destined for heaven; they have the sacrament of baptism and marriage. Yet they do not grasp the Eucharist which is the power of Christ to the soul to help it become perfect.

A Christian is not just someone who goes to Mass. A Christian is one who lives according to what Jesus has instructed that is to follow His example. Thus we have saints who did their best to imitate the life of Christ.

Why do we gather? Mass. To worship Christ to receive Christ to do what He instructed. That is to receive Him and gather. If the Church decides to institute a new doctrine which says we do not obey the 10 commandments, do you obey it? I do not because that is not in keeping with Gods Laws. God is above all. That is what the saints have realized. If the Church says we do not battle Satan, that is a big lie. We battle Satan. That is the case today. There is a movement which believes man is the cause of sin and therefore man is responsible not Satan. Both are responsible. Satan caused man to sin. So man and Satan was punished. The punishment is death to the flesh and eternal torment. Jesus removed this punishment for those who want to live forever. That is the goal after all to live forever.

The Body of Christ is made up of those whom God decides to put into it. Not the other way around. God chooses whom He wills. The Father draws and saves. Not man. Man is the messenger the one who does the leg work. God is a Spirit He is invisible He works with those who believe. Together God and man convert.

Now you must be trying to understand what I just said. Simple Believe God and His Christ do according to what He did to imitate Christ and you will not go wrong. To do good to others, to love. To love is the fulfilling of the Eternal Law. For God is Love. Those who love go to heaven. Love.

The Catholic Church is still in growing stages, stretching and weeding and groaning. Now when will Christ return? In the Gospel Jesus states that when all the cities and towns another words all of Israel has been evangelized. Thing about this is Israel was dispersed for centuries. Israel has to come under Christ in order for Christ to Return. Protestants are doing their best to evangelize all of Israel because they want Christ to return. So are they part of the Body of Christ? Yes. Not in the way you and I as Catholics desire and read. To say to our brother Protestants "because you do not believe in our Church and do as we do" is error on our part, because Christ teaches us to love and teach those in error. As long as Satan is around there will be error. As long as man is growing there will be error. As long as mans sins there will be error. Time to wake up and smell the oil that is burning. The world is in error. To have faith and hope and Charity is Catholic Teaching not optimism.

This thinking is from the Aristotle and others.

FAITH HOPE CHARITY.

To accept the world in it's state is Catholic teaching. To preach the Gospel is Catholic teaching.

To understand the degrees of sin and evil is Catholic Teaching. To Believe in the Trine God is Catholic teaching. To do Good to your neighbor is Catholic Teaching.

To say I'm pessimistic or optimistic is not Catholic teaching. That is what the worldly folks say.

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

Human beings are very good

God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good (Gen 1:31 NRSV).

God saw everything and that is was good. But read the rest and Man sinned and fell.

We the product of Adam and Eve are sinners. And whats worse is that we today are long long down the gene pool and the strain of this sin has gotten to be wider and more nasty. If you drop a drop of blood into water that water becomes tainted with blood and is no longer pure water. That's just one drop. Now imagine the gene pool with one drop, and with each successive birth of the stain of sin, it grows wider with each new generation. We see this in copies of products. When creating new copies each copy is not the same. Manufacturers have a problem with this phenomenon because each copy has residual flaws. With each copy the flaw becomes greater and wider until they have to break the mold and create a new mold. Then the process starts over.

Sin grows. It is like a tree it roots and branches.

To think that man is all good is incorrect. you have omitted the rest of the teachings. which is man is a sinner.

Man was created "once" all good, it is what he did afterwards. We unfortunately do know what it feels like to be All Good because we are sinners the product of sinful first parents. This flesh is corrupted it does not obey it's master all the time.

Otherwise we do not need to be rescued and saved we would be better off not having had this knowledge in the first place. But that is not the case. God has used sin to bring many a men and women to their knees. To give them a new life. To show them they are sinners first then clean them up. We will never be God nor close to God. Because there is only one God. We are His children and messed up children coming to be redeemed from the horrors of sin. God is all powerful. He can do all things. But we must do our part and that is to obey God in Love.

A soul is trapped in a person who is alive to sin. The soul came from God above, the flesh came from the earth below. The soul is looking for God while the flesh is looking for sin. The two are in conflict. 1 Peter 2:11

God infused His soul into man which was good. but that man sinned creating residual flaws with each new copy. This is what's called a sinner who was originally made sinless but through no fault of our own we inherited this sin. However you categorize this, one fact remains we must get rid of sin.

If we live according to the flesh we die, if we through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh we live. St. Paul.

Posted 1 year ago #

bwest2 - Inactive

It sounds to me that this was more of a cry out of "frustration" which is normal. In fact the "maek it believable" is nothing new and dates back to the very beginning. After all the signs and teachings what did everyone do as Jesus hung on the Cross? They asked for another sign. We as people are just not satisfied.

A modern day example would be this. A friend visits Italy and comes home with a ton of beautiful pictures. They say, "You would not belive how beautiful Italy was!" And you look through the pictures ooo'ing and ah'ing, but it really just doesn't sink in as to the real beauty. And they were correct in saying "You would not believe . . ." Why? Because you have not encountered the beauty yourself. Pictures and stories just haven't done that.

The point is that Christianity IS believable when one encounters Jesus and God in their lives. Just as one would have to get on a plane and physically visit Italy to encounter its beauty. One has to approach Christianity with an open-mind and make the journey to It through prayer, the sacraments, and service. The believable part is there just as the beauty of Italy is there, but the appreciation of either requires the journey.

Dear God: I didn't think orange went with purple until I saw the sunset You made on Tuesday. That was cool. Eugene

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

Thank you for your posts.

You wrote:

The Church ...is not just your parish or the one next door. (geographical) It is not just the Catholic Church but those other denominated sects who broke off the body of Christ and have strayed from Apostolic Teaching.(unfathomable).

I do not think I would agree with this.

I am reminded of the words of Oliver Cromwell:

I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.

However, perhaps I am the one who is totally wrong.

Do please think about what I have been trying to express.

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

NF: Read Espistles they will show you what you don't know. You don't have to agree with what the bible says as at least 85% of Catholics do not. They think it's protestant to do so. What a shame. The Church was built on Apostolic Teachings. Of which we read in the NT of The Bible and it's not even complete set of true Apostolic teaching, alot of scrolls and such were omitted.

The Inquisition forbade people from becoming literate because of the high illiteracy rate during that period in history. How stupid. The Word of God in the OT says "for a lack of knowledge people perish." Thus the Inquisition caused a great deal of problems. A tool of Satan. Consequently, some Catholics don't have time for spiritual enlightenment. In fact I know for a fact Protestants are part of the body of Christ but in error. Yet they spend time reading the Bible and praying, in fact most Protestants in regards to Bible studies are far better equipped with the Word than Catholics. How shameful. Yet they are Little lost sheep without the true shepherd guiding them with true gifts from the Holy Apostolic Church.

If I break off one of my limbs, it still belongs to the whole though separated. The broken off limb says, "I want my identity in myself as a limb, not as a whole because you poisoned me." Well who poisoned them, the poison comes from the Serpent. Within any organization Satan has is claws in them. Lets take the Judas Iscariot who was one of the 12 Apostles. Did he not betray the Lord? Why did God allow this man who was very young and not stable to become one of the 12? Think about it.

Some thoughts to ponder: God is All Knowing. He knew Judas. Yet He dealt with it.

God allows evil in our lives so we can triumph over Satan and all his works and pomps. That's the bottom line. Jesus showed us how to triumph over Satan his works, pomps. With His Spirit and help we triumph.

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

NF: I say again read the whole thing and do not isolate as you have done again

Posted 1 year ago #

lpioch - Moderator

Baptism (Catholic or not) is sufficient (supersufficient) to make each one of us children of God. Because of this, I agree with you, bhokuto. Anyone baptized is a part of the body of Christ. Anyone separated from the Catholic Church is hurting and not receiving the nutrition that Christ so freely and (over)abundantly provides.

Posted 1 year ago #

michaelme - Member

bhokuto: Can you clarify what you are saying about the inquisition and the canon of Scripture? It seems that you are saying that the canon is incomplete and that the inquisition was responsible for people not knowing the Bible. Is this your belief? Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #

pouliot - Member

To: BHokuto

RE: "The Inquisition forbade people from becoming literate because of the high illiteracy rate during that period in history. "

This appears to be tautological. If few could read, the meaning of "high illiteracy rate," then forbiding anyone from learning to read, the meaning of "becoming literate" is redundant; many already cannot read.

When looking backwards in time, one must understand the society and its parameters rather more deeply than simple statements would convey to a reader. Illiteracy was endemic because there was little time for learning. Everyone was too busy trying to survive. There were no salaried jobs, no chain food stores, no clothiers. It took work, hard work, from early light to dark night just to preserve one's own life. Given the conditions in those times, it is a cheap shot to criticize anyone for not fostering the education of the masses.

We are indeed pampered beyond credibility. However, that is no reason to use only our present day experience in assessing the past.

When engineeers of the future look back on our technology they will wonder that we were so stupid in dealing with the demand for energy. Now consider any other domain of human activity. Do not think for a minute that the levels achieved by the highest societies today are the end of the story. As blind as we are, so too, blind were the earlier societies.

I note your criticism of another poster whom you say did not take account of the whole of your posts. If a post leaks in any particular, then how can anything else be considered accurate or worthy of anyone's attention?

I could go further but I will stop -- to avoid further temptation to uncharitability..

Regards,: Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

Thank you for your recent posts.

I am afraid I disagree with you.

1. You wrote:

You don't have to agree with what the bible says.

I would disagree with this view. Catholics do have to believe the Bible.

The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."(CCC 107).

2 You wrote:

The Church was built on Apostolic Teachings.

Again I disagree.

Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.(CCC 424).

You recommend that I Read Espistles they will show you what you don't know.

I read in 1 Cor 3:11

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. (NRSV).

You wrote:

Of which we read in the NT of The Bible and it's not even complete set of true Apostolic teaching, alot of scrolls and such were omitted.

I do not know what this means.

These comments refer only to your first paragraph.

Really, I do not think I understand your views correctly. Those I think I understand I disagree with.

Thus I would appreciate hearing from someone who could clarify the issues between us. Perhaps my grasp of Catholicism is inaccurate. Some third party, possibly Ipioch, might like to resolve the issues which are troubling me.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

lpioch - Moderator

NoelFitz, I'll take a stab. But this is one person's attempt at explaining another person - whereas maybe Bhokuto can simply further elaborate, given your concerns (which are valid).

Bhokuto wrote,

You don't have to agree with what the bible says as at least 85% of Catholics do not. They think it's protestant to do so. What a shame.

I think here, you and Bhokuto agree. His point is that there is no one twisting our arm to agree with the Bible...which is why 85% of Catholics do not. But when he writes "What a shame" I take it to mean that he does not agree with those that do not agree with the Bible.

Bhokuto wrote,

The Church was built on Apostolic Teachings. Of which we read in the NT of The Bible and it's not even complete set of true Apostolic teaching, alot of scrolls and such were omitted.

Out of charity, I will (try to) explain this in a way that is not contradictory to Catholic teaching...tweaking terminology. Words have very important meanings. In discussions, it is of utmost important that each party agrees to the same meanings.

The Church was founded by Jesus Christ (as you point out very well, Noel). Built upon Peter, the Rock. However, she is an organic creation, and our knowledge and understanding develop with time. Maybe it would be better to say "The Church grows through the teachings of the Magesterium."

The Bible is complete, in the sense that what we have in the Bible is exactly the Revelation that the Holy Spirit intends for the Church.

But it (the New Testament) does not contain all the works and words of Our Lord. Apparently we don't need them all written down.

Instead, we have the Holy Spirit, and an unblemished bride, the Church. And it is through the Magesterium - Sacred Scripture united with Sacred Tradition - that we have the Saving Life of Christ.

Posted 1 year ago #

noelfitz - Member

Ipioch

Thank you for your clarifications.

I am pleased that behind the apparent misunderstandings of Bhokuto and me there is agreement.

Thus, from my part , I consider that the discussion is concluded.

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

Here's my reason for why I feel that the NT is not as robust as it should be:

Man grieves the Holy Spirit (unavoidable). Man through reasoning with his self (the rebellious attitude inherited, arguing with God) is not able to completely yield to follow the perfect will of the Holy Spirit. It will never happen in this life because man is still in the corrupted flesh --the idea of total perfection. To learn this is humbling for someone like me who desires this more than anything(which became sin for me). No matter how much you give to God and release yourself will, you are still man. This is the flaw, the flesh. Our weakness is our senses it yields to the wrong good - vice. I see it and recognize it in myself. I try so hard to fly up, but only to be reminded, my senses tell me other wise. How wretched I am, I want to fly up. This is our limitation.

To become perfect is a goal of mine. It is not to be attained in this life my flesh is the dead weight. We can be so close. For now I see through a glass as veil before me, but when I am perfect I shall see Him just as He is for I will have obtained Heaven. A whole body and spiritual transformation. The next step in the perfection. While in my current body "What God is looking at is my Heart" the perfection of my will towards Him, once I have come to the point where He is satisfied, which I'm still striving to, then He will say come into the "total" perfection which My Son Jesus has obtained for you through the slaughter.

Now imagine this attitude in all who seek to be with God. Even those who reside over us in the Church. Unfortunately they are busy working at fighting the injustice done by governments throughout the world. They are divided in the time they are given each day to attend to all life on earth.

Not everyone has this desire. About 10% of the worlds population.

How did I come to this point? Through reading the Word and taking the time to pray and meditate and seek other means of religious knowledge. The Mass is a bonus, a big bonus. If my soil is unprepared the Mass is not going to do me that much good because I'm still blind to it. My inner man has to see what the Mass is in order to appreciate the Gift of God. Jesus body blood soul and divinity. Then will it abound in what it was meant to do. That is, propel my soul towards Him at an even greater rate. A big boost. To satisfy the hunger of my soul.

Now if you comprehended what I have said, you will understand denominated people. If you understand what I just said, you will understand what the Inquisition was out to do, subtracting the education which you would receive from being taught how to read and write. Trace the root of any problem, and you will find either vice or virtue. Because God made things to be traced to it's root or origin.

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

Thanks Ipioch for your interpreting.

Apostolic Teaching. Is a very big deal with me. I will tell you that up front.

God in the form of a man-- Jesus, gave a boost to the Law given by Him originally to Moses, to lift it out of the dust. To revive, to bring it a new, to polish it, so that the New Jews who will become Apostles can give this newly revived law to the Church. Because God does not abolish His perfect law. Matthew 5,6,7.

New Jews: They were Jews. The old Jews were dead to God spiritually. Jesus is harsh and lays it on the Pharisees. So God in His really infinite thinking said, I will infuse new life into my never ending laws upon the earth while man is still in the flesh, all born of the seed of Adam. It's interesting that He chose Jews in the first place. So He chose Jews again. But this time not only for the Jews but for all man. Gentiles. Or invalids. According to Jewish law, if you were in a state of sin you were "invalid". And if you read the Law in OT, God punished sinners with physical manifestations. Lepers for one. Death is another. these are just a few. Also Jewish people were told not to follow after nor make alliances with the Gentiles because they will corrupt you as is repeated in the OT. They considered Gentiles invalids unholy detestable. Such is the case. And you will find true Jewish religion still holding the same traditions. The New Jerusalem in Revelations. We will become Jewish. All who make it to this point. What humor. After all we are from Adam, then Noah, then Abraham. St. Paul goes on to say the Gentiles who come to Jesus will be grafted in.

Apostolic Teaching: If you grasped what God has done with His Law and that it will never go away while this world still exists, then understand that with God, the Law is above man, meaning the Law is what you must follow - a governing spiritual body, but it is not above God. For the Law is His Word -- Jesus, though the Jews do not recognize their Master Jesus. For instance "I am the Lord Your God you shall have no other Gods before me or after me". He leaves no room either way. Deuteronomy 5. He demands and wants all to worship and Love The Trine God. The Jews misunderstood Gods love and found it as fear. Moses testimony eludes to that God is love, the last book of the 5. He goes to say, God brought you out of slavery, He gave you food and raiment, he preserved your goods 40 years without decay, He fed you manna from heaven, He kept you from diseases other than punishment for your sins of disbelief.

Apostles were re-taught the meaning of these laws and to make it effectual and brought back to life in the Church polished, the Holy Apostolic Church. In the Book of Revelations, the New Jerusalem has 12 gates, each Gate has the name of each Apostle. Revelations goes on to say that on the forehead of each faithful will have the Name of Their God. God creates, then gives to the created to build according to His will. God gives the law to man so that man can follow God.

I erred for the longest. Help me God I'm drowning! God expects all who have the means to help themselves, in order to gain wisdom and strength, to help our neighbor.

Posted 1 year ago #

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