Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life

Hang together

(36 posts)

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noelfitz - Member

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." I agree with Benjamin Franklin.

In CE it is desirable that we hang together, so I am sad to see contributors leaving.

As you know I am upset and disturbed by the way I consider CE is going recently.

I was thinking of leaving. However following the encouragement of Mary Kochan and others I have decided to stay, at least for a while. I think it is better to remain inside this group rather than outside. Perhaps one would agree with Lyndon Johnson It’s probably better to have him inside the tent ******g out, than outside the tent ******g in.

I never understand fully what Warren (wljewell, Pristinus Sapienter) means, but his recent post seems to suggest he is leaving. He is the Jewel of CE. His sincerity, integrity and Catholicism have been inspiring. His insightful comments have always been from the center of the Church. If he goes we will all be diminished.

Michael O’Donovan has also said he is moving on. Michael is another good friend of mine in this forum. He is also solidly committed to the Church and appreciates the way things used to be.

Alvinal seems to suggest he is moving on, at least for the summer, and also to suggest others might like to follow suit. He indicates, I think, that Protect the Rock has moved on. I hope this is not so.

Recently, as I have said on a few occasions, I consider that this forum is changing. I noted some time ago that eight of the most recent posts came from two subscribers, . This surely is not healthy. Also I have difficulties with views expressed in CE.

Catholicism is an optimistic, positive, joyful religion. The negative, pessimistic Protestant views of Calvin and Luther have seeped into modern religion. In Ireland this came with Jansenism and in the States it came partially with the Puritans. These negative views seem to be creeping into CE.

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. (NRSV, Phil 4:4)

Thus I would ask those who want this forum to flourish to submit posts and to start new discussions. Let us know you are there. Let us know if you agree with me. Especially let us know if you think my fears are unfounded.

I do hope I am living up to my motto “in all things love”. I hope what I write will be helpful.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member
Well spoken.
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
Don't go away noel ... I would miss you.
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Thank you for your support, Tarheel and Fishman. I really do appreciate it.

I am also encouraged by the recent post by Churchbeast, who was a member for less than three hours when the message was sent.

The new discussion initiated by AlvinaL is also very positive.

The replies by Fishman and PtR add to the discussion. I am pleasd PtR has not left us.

In fact during the summer many of us may have more time for contributing here.

Wouldn't it br great to have more discussions, more posts and more contributors?

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Recently I read:

 

Let all things be done for building up (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 14:26b).

Do you agree that St Paul captured the idea I was trying to convey in this topic?

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

Yes , i think that is correct.

What do you do however when you see others not building up , but tearing down? how to we correct with out doing damgage?

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure it starts with much prayer.

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
Noel: Glad you're not "outside pi**ing in." I don't know if Paul is supporting what you are saying as he is what you are doing. By remaining and reminding us all of the need to "be" Christian rather than simply "doing" Christian you challenge us to reflect on our writing on CE and our actions in the world. I don't know that I've seen all that you have on the fora because I often take a "break" from the site. I'll be on and post quite a bit, then I will be off for a couple of weeks or months. I hope that the tenor of the Roundtable doesn't change to one of negativity...It would be a great loss. Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Fishman and Michaelme

Thank you for your comments.

I wonder if I am one of those "not building up". I do not mean to challenge others; it is enough to challenge oneself.

 

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

noelfitz -- alas, admonishment of sinners is a nessary function to perform when one is called to it.  As well as a copral act of mercy.

 

Have you ever read "the shepard of hermas" ?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0201.htm 

It was one of the books that didn't quite make 'the cut' for getting into the bible. It was however very popular in the 1st and 2nd century church.  It has some wonderful meditations about 'building up' the body and shows give some good insight into the way people though of things at the time. 

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Fishman

you wrote:

alas, admonishment of sinners is a nessary function to perform when one is called to it. As well as a copral act of mercy.

Have you ever read "the shepard of hermas" ?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0201.htm

I should only admonish a sinner when I look in the mirror.

 

You mention the "the shepard of hermas".

 

I am interested in the Apostolic Fathers and have studied this text a little bit. I really did not get much out of it.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
on a journey - Inactive

Yes Noel, we all are sinners.  Here's a thought.  In today's gospel we read, do unto others as you would have them do to you.  Would you have others let you continue to sin?  What if you couldn't see your sin--would you want someone to show it to  you?

 

I would---as painful as that might be.  Do I admonish others?  Most of the time, no.  And then only if it's a close friend or relative.  Of course we must pray and ask the HS to guide our thoughts and words.

 

I hope you (and others!) don't leave this forum.  Even though I don't contribute much, I often read the topics and learn something every time--about myself and/or my faith. 

 

I posted the topic about evangelization a few weeks ago.  I see contributions to this forum as evangelization--what do you think? 

 

I am

on a journey

 

Jesus, I trust in You!

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . Well, Noel, if you look into the writings of our great Early Fathers, you have outright admonishments from beyond whatever mirror they owned. We simply gotta help each other out - but with great gentleness and genuine, humble charity. o.a.j, are we evangelizing? Can we help ourselves? We all get together and pound away about this topic and that, and somebody somewhere derives something - some even grandly devout Catholics more saintly than any here who learn more reasons why they are Catholic - and the explanation is NOT that 'insanity runs in the family', despite rumors. Some non-Catholics may not find the profound courage to convert from reading our tidbits, but they do learn that Catholics believe just about every important thing they do - just more concerning the Papacy, Sacraments and the like. I mean, o.a.j, take your draw from the Divine Mercy - 'Jesus, I trust in You!' - What's not to like about that, for any Christian? Look around here, and you find a unique mix. Other unique and equally valuable mixes are out there, of course, and worthy of viewing, learning, etc. But, I just do like the mix around here. I've given up about 'Mary Kochan for President 2008' because no fine lady deserves to have to deal with Congress, Beltway traffic, press conference frolics, etc. But, I do appreciate that she doesn't edit my various postings, or dump them unceremoniously - I must be getting some small thing(s) right now and again. I do blog elsewhere, and that fact takes some time I used to put here at CE. But, I'm gonna stick around, pilgrims - until we all get together to get things perfectly right forever. Remember, I love you, too Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

I'm not hanging -- I'm climbing!

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

NoelFitz,

We definitely don't want to see you leave!  I agree that it has been rather "quiet" lately.  I, for one, am part to blame. 

For me, personally, it has been simply the end-of-school insanity, followed up by a week away for a much needed vacation by all.  (and an entire week away from the computer, I found it quite difficult to WANT to come back to it, but needed to for business)

As for your continued expressions of sadness over the recent state of CE, I have never quite agreed with you.

I do agree that there are posters on the forums that

*  do not always accurately state the Catholic position

*  do not always believe the Catholic position

*  do not always defend the Catholic position

*  (etc)

However, Catholic Exchange itself has been vehemently faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church.  As Mary said elsewhere, CE cannot be responsible for the views of the forum posters.

The point you make about Christ being the head of the Church, I personally didn't bother addressing because I felt it had already been addressed very clearly.

1)  Christ is the head of the Church

2)  The pope is the VISIBLE head (i.e...vicar) of the Church

3)  People are not always as accurate with what they say as one would like them to be...but I have never seen any one here argue that "The pope and NOT Christ is the head of the Church"

I see today (not that I have brought myself back online) that Michael G  O'Donovan (I like to call him Michale GO'D) feels called to go off to truly DEFEND the faith on sites where he feels he can make more affect.  I, too, hope he pops back here from time to time.  And my heart and prayers go out to him.  Those frontiers used to be my own.  And they are front-line battles in every respect.  Now that I have a family and a household to attend to, I cannot (I force myself not to) approach those lines anymore (at least for now) because they are too  (1) time draining and, even MORE so, (2) spiritually and emotionally draining...if done with care and prayer.  I have to be more available to the more friendlier evangelism in my own home.

But I can understand why he feels he needs to leave CE to do so.  Time is not only money, but it is a valuable resource that belongs to God.  How often have I accused myself of sins against the 7th commandment - stealing time away from God by not doing what I ought.

It is my general, personal, feeling (and history does prove me right...but whether or not history is an accurate portrayal of future events, I cannot say) is that those that do not hold to the Truth - to the complete teachings of our Mother, the Church - the mouthpiece of Christ himself, will sooner or later find their way out of CE again. 

Summer is upon us, and I do think that the forums will necessarily slow down for that reason alone.  I could be wrong.

You have done a good job of trying to drum up business here in the forums, and I'm sure many (myself included) are grateful.  But it really is unfair to think that no one cares if they do not respond.  Some of us really are distracted sometimes (I think my kids came in no less than 9 times just during the time I tried to type this all up.)

I have to go now.  The kiddos are a calling!

-- Loretta

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Loretta et al

I greatly appreciate and am moved by your detailed post and by other recent contributions.

I am pleased you disagree with me. It really is encouraging and uplifting to be charitably told I am not correct. I like robust debate and disagreements, provided they do not deviate from the infallible teaching of the Church. I also believe there are few infallible doctrines, so there is great freedom of opinion.

Through ignorance I may not always state the Catholic position, but I do want to hold on to the faith.

Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

(1 Thess 5:11, NRSV).

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Noelfitz:

I never disagreed with you as far as Christ being the Head.  God is always the head the Divine Diety. Angus Dei. Your point was more of the overall eternal, where my point was concerning the present earthly ministry.  Two different but both are true.

the Authority given to the Apostles in Christ's name. I give to you the Keys of the Kingdom. I give to you the power to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons, absolve sins, and greater works shall you do than these because I go to the Father.  The Holy Spirit is given and Grace restored, the Holy Spirit who is the Power or the worker of God creates man and all things. The third person. Mind of God, Word of God, The Worker of God.  Three in one. 

Our Church was built on a Rock of Apostolic Greatness which became a whole body of believers, a community of God, a holy city, a nation of things to come; Which God built through man using man in man.

Else why do we look at the Pope? If the Pope goes bye bye what will we do? It's like the head on earth being cutoff. Chop. No one ever thinks about this because we take this for granted. Oh He's there so we're ok.  If he goes then we're headless because we are visible creatures which needs a visible head. Not withstanding the Holy Spirit who gives us graces.

I may not use the correct words to describing what I see and understand so bear with me a bit and maybe you can help me out with the correct words concerning the mystery of Church.

This is how I've come to know so far the mystery concerning the Church in it's different locations.  One church but in three places --- earth bound or militant, purgatory-expitiating and heaven -perfected. The Church on earth is "protection" as well as the other Sacraments from Satan hence Mystical body of Christ. His Body connects through space and time. Time and space are not barriers. But we who are still in this world have to purge ourselves of attachments to this life because it is earthly. Holy Spirit connects us. There's more to it then this as I do not have the right words to describe in detail the fullness of each extent.  If we sin mortal we are disconnected from Grace. If we stay in mortal sin and disregard the Voice(grace calling us) calling us back to Grace, we move ourselves outside this Mystical Body because there can be no sin in the Camp. One rotten egg spoils the whole bunch.

The Fullness of the Church is more than just receiving Christ, though it is of utmost importance, the Church is for man a great barrier a fortress of Protection against Satan who brought man down from Grace. The greatest enemy to God is Satan. God setup a protection against Satan.  As long as we are protected from Satan we can achieve Heaven through the Sacraments which give us strength and union and makes us Superior to Satan (allots us time to gain strength and power to battle the wicked one).  To become Saints.
Praise Be God always.

Christ is and will always be the Head and Body of His Church for He is God nothing will eradicate this.  Concerning men: we require, because of the way God setup up His Church on earth, we have a visible head, Authority in His Name.  So Christ is with us on earth in the Spiritual form, while in Heaven in His real form until Israel submits to Him. Then, all the church from it's various locations will be one with the exception of those in Purgatory who are expitiating.  Not sure when purgatory will cease.  Those who are asleep I presume are those who are in Purgatory.

The Pope is the Visible Authority on earth, the successor of Peter, this should speak volumes.

Second point about Apostolic Church, the Protestants are found but still lost without all the Sacraments. They need the whole truth.  They have portions of Apostolic Church, which are belief or faith in Jesus Christ, gathering in His name, the Bible, marriage.  They are split brothers and sisters wandering in the field.  I've spent sometime with Protestants who go to Church on Sunday (keeping the Sabbath), have prayer meetings, and bible studies on weeknights, praise and worship on weekends and gathering and caring asking for Gods help in their daily lives.  They Love God.  We need to pray for them that God would open their eyes and ears so they too can fill up the Body of Christ in Fullness.  More is better on earth for strength of Faith.  And we need to pray for our Church that we incorporate this type of gathering they do.  Except for the Mass.  Weeknight bible studies, prayer gatherings, praise and worship.  There is great power in singing praise to God. The Holy Spirit moves incredibly.

What affection from Praising God!

Amen

Angus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis! 

Posted 1 year ago #
JosephMary - Moderator

Ave Maria!

I have not been on the forum much, but I have been posting on the Ave Maria meditations. 

 I am with you all!  And my postions are as staunchly Catholic as they can be or as far as I know.

 peace!

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

Thank you for your detailed reply.

I suppose we do agree on some things.

You wrote:

Christ is with us on earth in the Spiritual form, while in Heaven in His real form.

Would you consider Christ is really present in the Blessed Eucharist? Is he there in His real form?




NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Noelfitz: Yes, He is present in the Mystical Way. He is present in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, for our souls. Our physical mind sees a wafer, our souls see Christ or God.  He comes to us a food for our souls.

Eucharistic adoration what it is?  The presence of Christ or God. But it doesn't look like Christ.  So there is a mysticism about this. 

It's a mystery which we just accept because it's true. 


Posted 1 year ago #
dado - Member

Bhokuto: I think rather than saying he is mystically present I would say that he is really, physically, substantially present in the Eucharist even though his appearance is as of bread and wine. To say he is mystically present downplays this substantial presence.
I don't think I would say our physical mind sees only the wafer and our soul sees Christ. This seems a kind of dualistic expression of body and soul being seperate. Instead by faith I (a unity of body and soul) see Christ.

ccc 365-368 The spiritual soul is the "form" of the body. Man is not the union of two natures. In man, spirit and matter form one nature. God creates every spiritual soul immediately. It is not "produced" by the parents and does not perish at death. It is reunited with the body at the final resurrection.

I would also hesitate to say  "see Chrst or God" although I think that you recognize Jesus Christ is God in stating it that way you might leave the impression that there is essentially something different between them.

I note that you didn't say Christ (God the Son) or God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. Where one person of the Trinity is present there also are the two other persons of the Trinity. God is one. The three Persons of the Trinity share one nature.

When you pray to one Person you pray to all three. Recall what Jesus said when Phillip asked him to show us the Father.

Dado

A.M.D.G.

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Dado,

 ccc 365-368 The spiritual soul is the "form" of the body. Man is not the union of two natures. In man, spirit and matter form one nature. God creates every spiritual soul immediately. It is not "produced" by the parents and does not perish at death. It is reunited with the body at the final resurrection.  <<This is incomplete.  

I will add to this by saying:  The soul is the superior part of man. Because God is a Spirit and the Spirit is always superior to flesh.  For the Spirit made the things of the Flesh and put it's spirit in man. Genesis 1

To back up a bit: The earth was formed from matter and then elements were laid on it such as water to create seas and rivers. The core or where the fire is, was covered by matter mud, rocks, dirt and then baked by the fire to mend or fuse it together.(layers)  God ordered the chaos in the cosmos to become what we see today.  clumps pleasing to the human eye. rock, earth, trees, vegetation which come from seeds,  elements- water, lightning so forth.  Light.  God saw each "piece" laying around in the box called the universe and said, hmm... I can create light from these elements, bam! light.  He then said hmm... I can make stars from the same elements. bam! stars. and so on.  For He is God and knows how each piece fits together.  This plus this make this. A kid in the sand box has his bucket and shovel to create bucket sand castles.  God looked at the sand box of what we call the universe, and said time to create!

The universe was a chaotic jumble of rocks, gases or elements and so forth before God put it in Order.  Fire is lit from gas. The sun is rocks and elements. The core of the earth is similar.  He built. Sorry for the long detour.

Man he is two parts of creation whether you like it or not. Spirit and mud. the mud came from a chaotic happening.  If you understand what I'm getting at.  We weren't randomly made.  As some might suggest.

Ever walk into a dirty neighborhood? It's dirty inside and outside. No matter where you go there's dirt.  A person who lives a sin filled life is dirty just like this neighborhood.  The Remedy is the blood of Christ and the water. O Blood and water which gushed forth form the Sacred Heart of Jesus, I trust in You. 

Physical example. A leper. A leper is a result from sin filled life rebelled against God. Outside on the flesh the manifestations are ugly. Over time, if left alone to the disease the flesh comes off (rotting), and you can actually see the bones.  Jesus healed Simon the Zealot who was a leper and became an Apostle. Restored all the flesh that decayed.  Though the fleshly appearance was a horror to see, caused the soul to suffer and expitiate, God granting the man a pure repentance.

Souls who are in sin are the same as the leper. It gets caked on with mud. But the soul is forever.  Your soul has veins, though you cannot see it, your soul has a heart, though you cannot see it, your soul has an intellect though you cannot see it. Yes we are one complete "being", but three parts, as God is three persons. The number 3.

God

the Father the Mind

the Son the Word

the Holy Spirit the Worker

Man

Flesh - made after the same manner(flesh and blood bones) of animals but upright in standing, has "instinct".  Tarzan comes to mind.

Intellect or mind for reasoning, but is able to acquire knowledge memory and use it.

Soul to relate to God, a spiritual intimacy - the superior part of man.  

Then the bible says this, "if we live according to the flesh we die, but if through the spirit or soul we mortify the deeds of the flesh we live forever". St. Paul

Birth, God could have given you different parents.  The soul is not immediately created.  The right circumstances have to be in place in order for a soul to be born.  It's Gods timing and Word that make it happen.  For He knows all souls before they're even born. Psalms.  The Virgin Mary was in Gods mind before she came to be. So this tells me that I was a "thought" before I came to "being".  Pre-conceived and not a notion. Let me elaborate further. I sometimes think of building my own house. So before I build, I plan. You get that rest. I don't need to go into detail.  That's how God works. He plans, then builds. But He planned way ahead.  

 

 

 


Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

 

 

Bhokuto

You wrote:

He(Jesus Christ) is present in the Mystical Way.

I disagree.

The Church teaches He is really present in the Blessed Eucharist.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
dado - Member

Bokuto,

" The soul is the superior part of man. Because God is a Spirit and the Spirit is always superior to flesh." and "Man he is two parts of creation whether you like it or not. Spirit and mud. the mud came from a chaotic happening."

I am not sure what you are getting at, is it your overarching theme that spirit is good and flesh is bad? That is the general idea I get from your post but I may misunderstand you.

Both body and soul are created by God. Gn1:10 "God called the dry land Earth and thee assembled waters Seas. And God saw that it was good." Gn1:26 "God said, "Let us make mankind in our image and likeness:*...Gn1:31 "God saw all that he had made was very good." (Confraternity Douay).

Genesis 3:10 reports that man is made from dust and "unto dust you shall return". The idea being that dust is lowly, as you indicate with mud, as when the serpent is told he would take dust in with his food a semitic indication of degradation. Man has degraded the good by sinning. (It's interesting that we should still taunt people with "eat my dust").

I am also not sure where you get the sense that creation was "a chaotic happening." I consulted four different translations and the terms used are void and waste with the sense of the context and original language indicating creation out of nothing.

How can creation not be under His design and control, how then can it be chaotic? In the garden of Eden before the fall all was orderly and Adam and Eve shared the beatific vision. Now, in a fallen world at the Macro level there is much unpredictability at the same time there is extremely beautiful order in the underlying physical structure of the cosmos. There was an extreme burst of energy in the big bang but that does not result in chaos. It is merely what God planned to happen at that stage of development.

On the soul, paraphrased from Fr. William Most:

Now the soul has superior intelligence compared to our physical brain and our attraction to physical stimulus and material things, those nagging false gods, limits our ability to use our souls intelligence to immediately and fully see the truth about things.

When we sin our intelligence is limited by our physical brain. That is why even venial sin has a deleterious affect on our path to holiness and continued venial sin can lead to mortal sin or at least to a kind of spiritual malaise where we do not advance in holiness.

When we die the soul no longer is hampered by the physical brain and even if we do not immediately see God we bring with us information of God and now really understand and long for him above all else. The pain of hell is to forever feel this separation and revolt against Him while yet still wanting Him.

So it is important that we be most concerned with the health of our soul , what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but loose his soul. But because man is both body and spirit, the health of the body can affect the soul, there is a psychological principle called somatic resonance Fr William Most explains:

"St. Thomas explains how it is that God sometimes sends to a man some special foreknowledge that He might not have sent otherwise, on the occasion provided by apt somatic conditions that are present either in sleep or in sickness: "[The human mind in such a state] is helped by some superior spirit, created or uncreated, good or evil . . . for [the mind] is weighed down by the weight of the body, and, while it applies itself to things of sense, it is less capable of higher things; and so, when it is withdrawn from the senses either by sleep or by sickness, or in some other way, it becomes thereby more apt for receiving the impression of a higher spirit."

(I had an experience of this while meditating on this topic. An image of a mans face was in my mind but it was unfocussed, as through a really dirty window in poor light, suddenly and for only a split second it became extremely sharp then returned to its indistinct outline.

What I was meditating on was a postive example of somatic resonance shown in the crucifixion of Christ when He says, Mk 15:34 "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?"; how that in His extreme anguish He is able to teach and give comfort to those around him by quoting Psalm 21(22): showing the passion foretold there but giving comfort in its outcome v24-25 "You who fear the Lord, praise him; all you descendants of Jacob, give glory to him; revere him, all you descendants of Israel! For he has not spurned nor disdained the wretched man in his misery, Nor did he turn his face away from him, but when he cried out to him, he heard him."

In His extreme anguish His physical condition does not affect His mind and soul as it does in the example of depression mentioned below.)

We are creatures made up of spirit and matter, body and soul. Our spirit is the immaterial soul, which our senses cannot feel. But our faith tells us it is there. So by way of our soul, we have some share in the nature of the angels.

First of all, there is such a thing as somatic resonance-a term from modern psychology. Since man is a single substance composed of both material and spiritual principles, it follows that for a condition in a person's body, there should be a parallel condition, called a resonance, in the soul, and vice-versa. For example, a person in deep depression sometimes thinks he is losing or has lost his faith. But the bad chemistry of his disease can interfere with the biochemistry that should serve as the somatic resonance to his faith. This does not expel faith, but can keep it from functioning normally, so that the person thinks he has lost it or is losing it."

One thing of note to take from the above and that is to be extremely wary of using forms of meditation that are not Christ centered and I would say not tried and true methods taught by the spiritual masters of the Church. Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Ignatius Loyola come to mind. There is much that can go wrong for St. Thomas says that the reception from a higher spirit might be good or evil and it might be hard to tell which without the advice of an experienced spiritual guide.

One other comment on the soul. It is not just a spiritual mirror image of the body, this is a form of Dualism.

From the Catholic dictionary at www.newadvent.org (I recommend reading the topics covering soul and spirit there.)

The soul may be defined as the ultimate internal principle by which we think, feel, and will, and by which our bodies are animated. The term "mind" usually denotes this principle as the subject of our conscious states, while "soul" denotes the source of our vegetative activities as well. That our vital activities proceed from a principle capable of subsisting in itself, is the thesis of the substantiality of the soul: that this principle is not itself composite, extended, corporeal, or essentially and intrinsically dependent on the body, is the doctrine of spirituality. If there be a life after death, clearly the agent or subject of our vital activities must be capable of an existence separate from the body....

Often, as among the Fijians, it is represented as a miniature replica of the body, so small as to be invisible...In short, all the evidence goes to show that Dualism however uncritical and inconsistent, is the instinctive creed of "primitive" man.

That is why I wouldn't refer to the soul in the way you did in your post, having veins and a heart, although it does have intelligence, and it infuses our chemical based brain with an intelligence and free will that the animal world lacks.

Why am I so picky about all this? The Church in its official documents is quite particular about how it expresses itself and it does this to protect the doctrinal issues at stake. As we are probably (mostly) not trained theologians we can't always be expected to be able to make these fine distinctions but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and be careful about how we express our opinions in doctrinal areas, perhaps a little homework is approrpriate.

Now I understand that you are spiritualizing the creation story and some of the other topics to make some point but your examples can tend to be a distraction and make it hard to follow to your point. If they help you, wonderful, just be sure that you test the conclusions you draw from them against the living, orthodox faith.

Dado

AMDG

PS If anything I have written above is contrary to the faith, don't be shy about calling me on it.

Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
To: NoelFitz
RE: coming in & going out
When the traffic on the forums diminishes, I go through the posts that are so old that they are at the end of the list.  I look for ones I missed, and ones that ought to have gotten more of a response. 

Perhaps there are members who prefer to explore questions together rather than constantly argue points with one another.

We ought to consider how we can live the Gospel through this medium.

Regarding what Loretta posted about the different posters in relation to right teaching, I want to say that I consider it painful at times to see something posted that is off base without the poster identifying themselves fully as to their position wrt the magesterium.  At times I feel as if posting ought to be by invitation only but how could one ever meet someone new or have them join in for "the first time." 

Wild idea: why not a survey type quiz upon applying for forum privileges?  Nah, that wouldn't work. People like some we have had here, and some I suspect are here even now, would simply deceive, just to get on.

The problem is that someone who is searching can come across these posts made by the uncertain or the dissenter or whatever other non-orthodox party and misunderstand the truth.  Great harm can be done thereby.  How can this risk be reduced? (New topic, you say?  Yes, I suppose so.  It's just that it arose naturally from trying to address your malaise with the levels of participation.  For me, I tend to react somewhat with the "Speech is silver, but silence is golden" perspective.) 

I've got to get some sleep now, but I will try to get back, with a new thread for exploring this aspect of the forums.  I will part with a call for us to remember Churchill's "Never give up..."

Regards,
Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Pouliot

You make good points.

Sometimes I feel that I would like at leisure to think about, prepare and compose answers to issues raise. But there is no time to do this. Lively discussions require rapid responses.

Concerning the lack of right teaching in our group, This is not a major problem. I write, like some others, as an ordinary lay Catholic, with a limited knowledge of the Faith. I want to be faithful and if I am off-beam others will let me know, in charity.

We learn by discussion. Open, frank exchanges of opinions, in charity, are healthy. Some contributors may not be believers, but wish to learn, so they should be welcome. Some may be flippant. Replies to them help our understanding and those who are not serious disappear after a while.

I consider that our moderator, Mary, does a great job, by gently steering us along the correct path, while allowing open, robust, charitable discussions.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . It may be nice for each posting member of the CE forA to invite one other person to grab a nickname and have at the site's communicative ways. CE forA - 'Mary Kochan and a cast of thousands!' You know how much time she probably wastes sleeping? We can make it a rule that if Mary has to 'getcha' about anything - $5 in the poor box! Remember, I love you, too Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Dado

 

God is a Spirit.

Jesus is present Body Blood Soul and Divinity. << ALL OF YOU DID SEE THIS IN MY POST, So you did not pay attention

He is present Mystically. Transubstantiation.


God is infinite, He is not limited by our minuscule, congenial interpretations.

God was present on the Mercy Seat of the Ark "seen as light" Shekinah Glory (mystical) He is present in the Eucharist.

 

I really don't time to give you a long speech. You just have to come to terms with what I'm trying to show you.

if you think that God limits Himself to some book you're in for another disappointment. God gave each one of us an intellect to perceive him. The book is like the first steps, then after we build our faith we take flight. Then from time to time because we forget, we go back and read again from the book, but each time we read the more our vision or the way we think of God becomes refined to the point you can use very few words. The Holy Spirit is ready to take each of you to definitions beyond your current definitions.

I Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:

9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

With your own spirit you need to find and interpret for yourselves.


Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Noelfitz all you seem to say is "I disagree" I guess this is the extent of what's inside you.

Think for a moment. When someone told you that the bread is Christ what was your response internally, what were your thoughts? Don't tell me.

When you went to learn about the bread and wine, you just said ok it's Him?

but how is it done? What is the reality of this? It is mystical. The Body of Christ is considered the Mystical Body. Do we physically see Christ's body? Do we physically See Christ in the Eucharist?

We accept this by faith. Do you think anyone who doesn't believe would see Christ?

God does not want us to be staunched, He wants you to keep seeking Him and learn the deeper meanings the deeper truths of this connection. It is mystical indeed.

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

bhokuto,

Please take into account the power of words.  You are correct in your intentions, but your words are not exact.  NoelFitz does not agree - not because he likes to disagree and that is what is in him but - because NoelFitz expects people to say what they mean.  Words are powerful and loaded with meaning.

2000 years of the Church trying to put the right words to convey the Truth.

If you try to put them into "better words" than what the Church has already developed, you either do not know she has better (more exact) words, or you believe your understanding to be greater.

So let's just take a look at the Catechism.

CCC 1374 states,

The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real'—by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

(italics original in Catechism).

202 shows us that it was the Council of Trent that developed the particular formula "the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."  Reading early church Fathers, they believe the same meaning - but not necessarily with such a succinct formula.

 

Now, NoelFitz disagreed with you because you said "he is present in the Mystical Way" which is absolutely different than what the Catholic Church proclaims as the faith.

But I think what you MEAN is that Christ's presence "has a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence" (mystical). 

Although true, your statement is not as exact and as thorough and as complete as the way the Catholic Church states its belief.

Because words are so powerful, filled with meaning, what you said was not complete.

So NoelFitz was accurate in disagreeing with you.

But NoelFitz, you were not complete in what you said either.  You only said that He is really present in the Blessed Eucharist.  When truly, He is truly, really, and substantially present in the Blessed Eucharist.

So both of you stop bickering with each other.

And if the Church has bothered in her 2000 years to forumlate the Truth into words, please try to take some time to find those words and use them.

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Ipoich,

Not exact according to CCC but to the Bible.

Posted 1 year ago #

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Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge