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On Original Sin

(28 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by michaelme
  • Latest reply from michaelme

michaelme - Member

I’ve been perusing a small book called Theology for Today’s Catholic:  A Handbook  that I picked up at a local parish and came across this statement on pp. 49 and 50.

 

 "Two Views of Original Sin

 

“Two main theological approaches try to make sense out of this truth about ourselves…[first one covered is loss of original perfection]…An alternative approach offers an evolutionary or developmental explanation.  Instead of seeing weakness or imperfection of people as a result of having lost something that was originally present, original sin is presented as the natural consequence of immaturity and incompleteness.  God’s creation of humanity is still underway and is not yet finished.  People are still not what they are meant to be in God’s mind, because God hasn’t finished with them.  We still do not understand who God is and what bring the image of God means because we haven’t yet developed the ability to understand.  As history unfolds, God makes use of our shared history to reveal himself to us, to teach us, to bring us growth, and to move us forward in the development of our God consciousness.  In this view, Christ is the perfect model of what we are all meant to one day become.  But he is much more than that.  His is the way to become God’s image, the definitive force which makes it possible for us to make a great leap forward and through whom the ongoing creation by God the Father is brought to its completion.”

 

I’ve never heard this view and the book (published by Liguori and authored by Stephen Rehrauer, C.Ss.R.) provides no bibliography or references to the material within.  I find myself uneasy with this view of original sin on a couple of grounds:

 
  1. If we did not lose an “original perfection” or “original grace” where is the need for a “redeemer” who offers Himself on our behalf as a perfect sacrifice?
  2. The whole theology seems vaguely Hegelian, or Chardin-ian, or even a bit Mormon…the idea that we are always evolving into something better and haven’t reached the perfection that God wants for us as a process of “evolution” and “history.”
 

Does anyone know of a source for this view of original sin?  Does anyone have a definitive answer to whether it is an accepted “alternative” to the loss of “original grace” about which I learned and about which I teach my children?

 

(And why doesn't <blockquote></blockquote> work anymore?)

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
I do not know where the view comes from but it seems to contradict the bible. In the scripture God 'finishes' his creation and declares it 'good'. Also, it is a catholic teaching that human beings are by nature good and because of 'loss of perfection' sin. That is as opposed to the protestant view that humans are corrupted to the point that they are by nature evil, and christ sacrifice merely covers our sins. I know that position is officially condemned and the second theory seems to support the condemned conclusion. Are you sure this book is presenting the latter opinion as one amongst catholic theologian? or merely Christian theologians?
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

Christopher:

The heading of the section is "Two Views of Original Sin" without disclaimer that one is Catholic and the other not.  Both are presented as alternatives to understanding original sin.

I'm looking for sources from which this might have come.  It certainly seems to go against the CCC where we read:

"By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

"Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called 'original sin'.

"As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called 'concupiscence')." 416-418 [emphasis mine]

So what I'm looking for is source material for the view and some understanding around whether this view is orthodox and how it fits a "traditional" view of original sin.

Michael "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried" "The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator
This also implies that Revelation is not quite complete (a load of malarky), but is evolving for us.  God did make use of history to slowly reveal Himself to us.  Until Christ... who IS the fullness of God's Revelation. 
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

Loretta:

Also true, as I see it.  The book has the imprimatur of Bishop Hermann, auxiliary of the Archdiocese of St. Louis.  So I'm trying to find some reference to this view of Original Sin.  Not having any luck either...not just in Catholic doctrine, but any resource.

Ideas? 

Michael

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried" "The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
perhapses you should send an e-mail to the bishop and ask him ;) http://www.archstl.org/about/hermann.htm
Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Just a cursory search on Yahoo with:

+immaturity +incomplete +"original sin"

the first link is "Crossing the Threshold of Liberation

Seems like this is a Buddhist perspective.

 

Under the section, "Oneness in Universal Love instead of Reliance on the Creator"

For a Christian the only salvation is through complete love for and devotion to god. Only in the name of Jesus and through the redeeming power of His crucifixion and resurrection can the original sin of each individual be cleansed. This complete reliance on god enhances the dualistic distinction between the Creator and His creatures. In Buddhism, our sorrows are rooted in the illusive concept of a self, and through practice it is possible to free ourselves from the limitations of such illusions and regain our original purity. Buddha may show us the correct path to such liberation, but we do need to walk the path ourselves. When we become liberated all distinctions evaporate, and we are one with Buddhas.

 

If this is where it is coming from, it is simply yet another example of Truth being watered down to meaninglessness.

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
well, buddism has done a very good job of approaching God by listen to the 'law written within the heart'. It is amazing how much the process the buddist describes sounds like sanctification, which is the path to holiness. The difference being that they seem to think you can accomplish that work by your own steam. Pretty good though for a group that did not have divine revelation to help them get there.
Posted 1 year ago #
HomeschoolNfpDad - Member
(And why doesn't <blockquote></blockquote> work anymore?)
You have to click the link to disable rich text. Then you have to write in plain text and add your own formatting codes.
Posted 1 year ago #
HomeschoolNfpDad - Member

As to the notion of God continuing to reveal Himself, this directly contradicts Sacred Tradition, which declares public revelation closed with the death of the last of the Apostles. This does not prohibit two things:

1) Private revelation, such as the appearance and message of the Virgin Mary at Fatima. Of course, the Church does not mandate acceptance of private revelation. Moreover, the Church rejects outright any private revelation that contradicts the Deposit of Faith, including the point about public revelation being closed.

2) Doctrinal development. It is through the development of doctrine that the Church in 1854 can declare that the Immaculate Conception is unchangeable doctrine that must be accepted by all Catholics. But again, this cannot contradict the Deposit of Faith and doctrinal development does not imply any changing nature of humankind nor any new revelation. It is merely an improvement of our own understanding, and it must be made as an infallible Papal declaration (very, very, very rare) or by the assent of the Holy Magisterium (and not by the declaration of a single bishop or a national bishop’s conference)

Posted 1 year ago #
HomeschoolNfpDad - Member

There's another half to a Bishop's Imprimatur, which literaly means "print it." That is Nihil Obstat, which literally means "nothing opposes," as in "nothing opposes the teachings of the faith." Now, legitimate theology needs neither an Imprimatur nor a Nihil Obstat in order for the theologian to think on the teachings of the Church or to publish his thoughts. Moreover, speculative theology is perfectly legitimate as well. Speculative theology still should not contradict the teachings of the Church, but if you think about it, the strict doctrine of the Church is rather narrow in its scope. For instance, regarding Mary, there are only four doctrines:

1) Mary is the Mother of God.

2) Mary is perpetually a virgin.

3) Mary is immaculately conceived.

4) Mary is assumed into heaven body and soul by the power of her Divine Son.

Not even the coronation of Mary as Queen of heaven and earth rises to the level to strict doctrine. Rather it is declared by Pius XII in his encyclical, Ad Caeli Reginam, in 1954. Now, this does not mean that one can dissent from the teaching on Mary's queenship role. Indeed, Pius XII did not invent anything with his encyclical but rather observes that "[f]rom the earliest ages of the catholic church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven." Thus, he ties Mary's queenship to the Sacred Tradition and moreover derives his particular explanation as a consequence of the four doctrines, particularly that of the Assumption: "It is gratifying to recall that We ourselves, on the first day of November of the Holy Year 1950, before a huge multitude of Cardinals, Bishops, priests, and of the faithful who had assembled from every part of the world, defined the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven where she is present in soul and body reigning, together with her only Son, amid the heavenly choirs of angels and Saints." It is simply not logical (i.e. not reasonable) for Christ to assume his mother into heaven and then fail to honor her at His side as His Queen. But the queenship role is a conclusion based on the doctrine.

Other theologians can engage in more speculative reasoning than this particular illustration, and such speculation is perfectly legitimate provided it is concordant with the teaching of the Church and represents a reasonable application or incorporation of the Church's teaching. And to some ears, speculative theology can sound like dissent, even if it's not. This is why St. John of the Cross wrote a book-length explanation of his poem, "The Dark Night of the Soul.” The words of St. John’s poem sound downright provocative – and they are – and to some, this sort of provocative language could be incorrectly understood as unchaste. So St. John’s explanation serves to minimize the risk of scandal due to incorrect understanding.

With respect to the quote at the top of this post, it is hard to pass judgment on its faithfulness unless we have access to the full text. It is possible that this particular paragraph merely refers to an exploration of the writer which is better clarified elsewhere. Unfortunately, it is also possible that it represents a departure from the teaching of Church, especially in these dark days where confusion weighs so heavily upon the Body of Christ. For this reason, we must be vigilant and we should highlight errant theology and explain its errors. But we should do so charitably and even point out the possible merits of the errant theology and the way it is presented. Any merits would be those aspects of the theology that agree with the teaching of the Church and our charity would extract these points, fill in the missing pieces and gently correct the error.

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

HSNFPD: 

"it is hard to pass judgment on its faithfulness unless we have access to the full text. "

That is really what I'm asking from this group...whether anyone has heard of this and what a source might be.

Michael

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
I have not found the specific reference yet but I have at least narrowed the catagory I believe. This sounds like something 'new' that someone has drawn from more recent ideas of 'theistic evolution' which is a fairly popular view amongst catholic intellectuals. http://www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=1205&issueID=350 It is basically an attempt to rectify tradition and modern science. I suspect the statement is poorly formulated and not very rigorous in it's considerations. Did the human BODY evolve? If it did how do you fit that data with the traditions involving original sin. I think this is a relatively new problem theologically speaking and probably has a great deal of diversity of opinion on the subject.
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
you might also find this interesting http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p94.htm
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

The image “http://www.alfonsiana.edu/images/PR%20-%20Rehrauer.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

 

This discussion is about advanced modern theology. Fr Rehrauer seems a very reputable and dedicated priest. I am afraid I cannot give an opinion about his theology, but consider his views should be carefully considered.

Rev. Stephen Rehrauer, C.Ss.R., is invited professor of moral theology at the Accademia Alfonsiana in Rome and the Instituto Superior de Ciencias Morales in Madrid.

In reflecting upon the past 25 years, Father Rehrauer remarks: "I’ve been privileged to have the best of both worlds. I’ve been given the opportunity to serve God’s people pastorally and to learn from them the type of religious God is calling me to be, and now I am being given the opportunity to share what I have learned from this experience with others who are being called to do the same. http://www.alfonsiana.edu/PR%20-%20EN%20Rehrauer.htm

Father Rehrauer writes in the introduction to his book:



Adult faith requires a constant search for a deeper and more mature understanding. As we live our lives, as our lives become busier and more complicated, our understanding of the meaning of what we believe, and what we do when we act on our beliefs must also keep pace and grow.

http://www.wellsprings.com.sg/nzc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7504

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member
noelfitz- I agree his opinions are well worth understanding and considering. So are St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, both of whom were wrong on occasion as well. I would need much more context before really considering what the view here means. the question it leaves me with is. Does the author believe there was a specific historical event in which man was en souled? When man was en souled was he in a state of perfect grace? Did our first ancestors voluntarily leave that state of perfect grace? I think if yes is answered to the question above, the idea that God is perfecting his creation through time is nothing particularly novel. The original statement leaves some room for doubt as to weather or not the author meant that, especially if you factor in that the statement was probably translated from anther language.
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
Christopher: Thanks for the links to Theistic Evolution though I think that is not quite the center of the target. As I said in my first post, it seems rather more like the Hegelian idea (and here I am going to seriously oversimplify and paraphrase) that man is a product of his societal history, fraught as it is with contradictions. Hegel thought of these contradictions as phases of an overarching unity only visible to “higher man.” I also indicated that it sounded in a way like Chardin in that there seems to be an evolutionary goal (Chardin’s “Omega Point”) which is different from the idea of “Theistic Evolution” or “Intelligent Design.” Chardin posited (in the Phenomenon of Man) that the mission of Christ was not completed at the crucifixion, but rather begun there and man is to further that mission through evolution until “Christogenesis.” (Again, seriously oversimplified). The monitum of 1962 condemning Chardin’s work is, to my knowledge, still in effect:
"The above-mentioned works abound in such ambiguities and indeed even serious errors, as to offend Catholic doctrine... For this reason, the most eminent and most revered Fathers of the Holy Office exhort all Ordinaries as well as the superiors of Religious institutes, rectors of seminaries and presidents of universities, effectively to protect the minds, particularly of the youth, against the dangers presented by the works of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin and of his followers."
I say that I thought the idea also, in a way, sounds Mormon in that the theology seems to have man “evolving” toward godhood, though I won’t spend a lot of effort defending that thought. Perhaps I should go back and re-read Chardin. In retrospect, the quote from my initial post sounds a lot like him. Noel: Thanks, too, for your information. As I said, the idea makes me "uneasy" though I may be able to accept it, given the full background to what is being said (and its acceptance by proper ecclesial authority). NFP Dad: Ahhhh! much better, thanks (disabling rich-text). Michael "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried" "The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

For any who remain interested in this topic, I wrote Fr. Rehrauer who was kind enough to offer a reply.  I'll abbreviate and summarize it here though his summary of the theology was four pages in length. I'll say up front that is is NOT like Fr. Chardin's formulation nor is it a way to suggest that "evolution" was the method by which God chose to create man.

The formulation which the Church has used for the last 1600 years is the best developed but not the only one explored by the Fathers.  St. Augustine really fully developed the theology of Original Sin we use (with refinements from Aquinas and Trent) in the Catechism, but Gregory of Nyssa and Theodore of Mopsuestia, working on an understanding of free will, began to develop a different understanding of original sin.  Fr. Rehrauer did admit that it is not easy to grasp, because the theory is underdeveloped and that there is a way to go to set boundries on this theological forumlation and see if/how it fits into Church teaching on topics that relate to Original Sin (Baptism, Christ Sacrifice, concupiscence, etc.).  Apparently, it is a concept that is further in development in protestant circles because of their reliance on scripture alone, but has influenced some church documents like Gaudiam et Spes.

The magisterium has never rejected or accepted this other view of original sin. 

Fr. Rehrauer provided a long list of books and authors to read.  If any are interested, I will post those.


Michael

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

I think this is also interesting in light of the new non-magisterial document coming from the vatican The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized. Some of the views expressed in that document seem to mirror this "second" view of original sin.

Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . + Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - - - - - - we're not looking at some chronic ailment of body or soul, here - - - +
Me: 'Thanks for the Baptism . . .' Padre: 'Your welcome'. Me: 'Spanking new little Catholic . . .' Padre: 'Without much spanking.' [chuckle] Me: 'And parents and godparents committed to support and teach . . .' Padre: 'We certainly hope and pray so.' Me; 'And original sin shoved back in Satan's face, huh?' Padre: 'Oh, yes!' (And, I note, that we did not baptize the tyke 'in the name of' whoever has the better idea about original sin!)
Neither the baby nor I care how the poor little thing picked up his original sin - but (for him, in time) we both can appreciate that Baptism set it eternally aside. Remember, I love you, too Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #

This was a great discussion.  I think it was started with a good topic of discussion.  People presented their views.  Some research was done.  Then the author was contaced and the author based his answer on the Fathers of the Church.  And we continue to discuss the idea.  I am impressed with everyone on the CE round table.  Way to go and keep it up.

 

GK - God is good!

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

PS:

"Neither the baby nor I care how the poor little thing picked up his original sin - but (for him, in time) we both can appreciate that Baptism set it eternally aside." 

The Church, however, does care.  Though the aforementioned document is non-magisterial, John Paul the Great commissioned the study suggesting that there is no more theologically pressing question for our time than the state of children dying unbaptized...particularly as the result of abortion.

And not only the Church cares, but the parents who have lost a child before that child could receive the Sacrament. 

Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Michael,

You lost me a little.

In what way does the way we picked up original sin affect whether or not God is Merciful?  No matter what, if one gets to Heaven without the sacrament of Baptism, it is only through God's Mercy. 

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

I guess my take on this is this:

as I understand punishment in hell is equivalent to guilt

reward in heaven is equivalent to capacity which correlates to the graces one choose to receive in life.

 

so it seems to me unborn children are either in hell without punishment or heaven without reward which to me seems to be an identical state either way and the need to place them in heaven or hell seems to be artificial and a product of human limitation.

 

The best answer is they are disposed as God pleases and we really have no idea what that is. 

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

Loretta:

Both Augustine and Aquinas development of Original Sin consigned the unbaptized to Hell; Augustine's was active punishment whereas Aquinas' was passive (not tortured by demons but fully aware of and suffering from denial of the Beatific Vision).   The manner in which we pick up original sin does not affect God's mercy (We are bound by the Sacraments, God is not, etc. (I know you know this. I'm putting it here for others reading it who may not)).  The CCC and the Mass for Unbaptized Children both consign the unbaptized infant to God's mercy. 

I certainly didn't mean to say that God's mercy only works in one system and not the other.  If I left that impression, my apologies.  I do see that this second method has some merit in explaining how God's Infinite Mercy (which could allow all into heaven) can "supercede" (if that's the right word) His Infinite Justice (which would consign all to Hell).  However, there seems to be a lot of work to be done to develop this theology of Original Sin and rectify it with Church teaching in other areas.

Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . I tried writing this earlier, but CE sometimes loses what I write in losing connection . . . this time, pre-processed under MS-Word: Nothing of Church doctrine places me beneath the appraisals of even Augustine and/or Aquinas, and I appeal to the Lord’s inspiration in such as these non-doctrinal matters. After all, He has given me the mind I possess by His graces. I daresay He has me in my lonely solitude more to Himself than did either esteemed Doctor. Moreover, I believe what God gives us for graces, and for virtues from His graces, is meant to lead us back to childlike innocence. I saw it happen in my late wife, Sharon; she aged in wisdom and prayer, developed in humility and God’s strengths, and grew more childlike in trust, hope and love. [For those who think it difficult to live with a saint, for the saint’s example: saints are the least judgmental and most loving persons on earth. Sharon prayed against sin, and prayed for the full salvation of all.] Of special balance to our Lord’s judgment is how much we move to return to innocence by His grace. It is of special delight to Him. To my death, I will not and cannot believe that any child unable to be temporally baptized is not hence baptized at the very Throne of our King. There is will for that First Sacrament in the love from our families and communities, for one thing. However, more, in Christ Who would not have children but exemplars of those bound for glory, these children are saved Personally. As His own Mother presents Him with these ‘lost’, from abortion, spontaneous or willed, or stillborn, He is aroused to tears of mercy and such inexpressible love. In His tears, upon each baby, He baptizes them: ‘In the Name of our beloved Father, in My own Name, and in the Name of our loving Holy Spirit, I baptize thee My child’. Remember, I love you, too Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member

PS:

Can't and won't disagree that Him who said, "Suffer the little children to come to me, for to such as these belong the Kingdom of God," (yes, I know, Fallacy of Accent) should find a way to allow them to come to Him.  Your last paragraph, to me, demonstrates in more loving words the sum of the recent document...Grace overcomes sin.

But, right now, this is a matter of personal piety and not a teaching of the Church, which I believe is why JPII made it a priority for theologians world-wide.

Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

What a great topic,

I would say from the Fr.s point of view and his vocabulary in terms of the words he selected he understands God.  That's what counts that you understand God.  If we as christians stay within our limited ability (box) and seek not the outer box experience we stay confined within (interior).  God is infinite.  We should think this way so the infinite comes to us in the interior and floods our being. 

Is this possible?

Did the Virgin Mary house the Savior who is God?  The infinite came to a mortal being. He who is infinite came and confined Himself in the finite.  If we did not have a soul which came from the infinite, we would be just like animals whose limited intellect cannot imagine as we imagine.  

A parable: A man was born deformed and his father rejected him because he was deformed. His father sent him to live amongst the animals in a barn. He had no decent clothings and ate scraps, but this son was seeking his father since he was young. He was scoffed at, ridiculed. He wasn't even treated as a servant but as a animal a rejected child.  The servants had quarters and ate regularly and were treated with less respect than the sons of the Father.  There was a good servant who noticed that rejected deformed son was not a bad person but longed to be in his Fathers house. Because he was deformed and did not look like a normal person he was sent out but not tossed out of the ranch.  His Father had pity on him and did not cast him utterly out.  This good servant continually over the years befriended the deformed son and one day the good servant came to the Father of the deformed son and told the Father of his son, how his son longed to be in the Fathers house. The Father over time grew more pitiful for the son and gave the good servant his request to have the deformed son come before his Father. When the son arrived at the door, he dared not enter in until the Father bade him.  While standing by the door, the Father gave him audience and the son said: "Father let me in, I love you".  The Father with tears running down let him enter and thus he became a son in the home of his Father.  His deformity over time had changed.  What's missing is the struggle of day to day because in the end only one things is necessary that through the struggle the forming of a soul is to say "Father I love you let me in"  

The lost are the deformed sons and daughters of man or for those who were lost we know what it's like to have been accepted.  Souls are so scarred with the original sin and root sins that have passed down or were engrafted through vice.

The servants are those who have been healed of deformity and are like disciples bringing the lost deformed souls to the Father.

The sons are like the angels who are in heaven.

I was reading Eccelesiasticus 47 where Davids sins were taken away and he was given an earthly throne and glory to show forth what we Christians would achieve through Christ Jesus. 

Posted 1 year ago #

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