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mass et latin
(74 posts)I'm really trying to decide what I think about Latin used during the mass. I can think of many positive.
1) it promotes world wide and parish wide unity
2) it forces people to study the meaning of the mass if they want to understand
it instead of just passively listening to it like you would T.V.
3) It puts and end to all kinds of linguistic issues
( gender inclusive langue, translations , masses offend in 4 languages
in one parish (Spanish , Vietnamese, polish) etc).
4) it enforces a feeling on universality( cathlicims) to the mass hopefully can break
people ( like Americans) out of the nationalistic pride enough to force them to recognize
all humanity as other christs.
It also has for me at least several disadvantages:
1) I don't understand a word of it and trying to read what is being said distracts
me from praying along with the priest because I read slowly.
2) It seems 'not my language' and 'don't change things on me' problems and the pride and haughtiness
associated with them seem almost insurmountable to the normalization of latin in use.
3) There is a potential of creating a parish divined between those
who do and do not attend masses in latin.
4) would be understand what was going on anymore?
would they care enough to find out?
Then again I suppose one could as weather those people who wouldn't
care enough to find out what the Latin means actually understand what the english means either.
Many people I know have never taken the time to understand it in their native language either,
but I wonder weather or not that is because it is 'too familiar'.
Thoughts ? Observations? How many would like to see more New masses done in Latin?
More traditional style masses done in English?
Myself I'm sure of at least one thing I'd like to see more masses done and more
people attending the ones that are done.
I recently read about a young, energetic priest who was trying to learn the NO Mass prayers in Latin and had asked about looking into TRM in his parish.
Several months later, a man saw the priest and asked if he was still saying Mass in Latin and how it was going with the TRM. The priest said he had stopped doing it. The man asked if the parish was giving him a hard time, anticipating that the "progressives" would have been upset. The priest said although a few people mentioned they did not understand the Latin, he reason he stopped the Latin was that every time he did, the more traditionalists in the parish always came up to him and pointed out every error he committed.
He got beat down by the very people he was trying to minister to, so he just went back to the vernacular NO Mass. A sad story.
I would add 2 more positives:
1) Once you finally make it to Rome for a Mass at the Vatican, you can fully participate easily because you already know the Latin!
2) The Latin makes it more difficult to "improvise" unless one is fully fluent in Latin.
Here are my thoughts on the negatives you listed:
1) I don't understand a word of it and trying to read what is being said distracts me from praying along with the priest because I read slowly.
This actually doesn't last too terribly long. So there's a learning curve. After that, your first negative disappears.
2) It seems 'not my language' and 'don't change things on me' problems and the pride and haughtiness associated with them seem almost insurmountable to the normalization of latin in use.
Well, pride is a terrible reason not to do something.
3) There is a potential of creating a parish divined between those
who do and do not attend masses in latin.
This is a legitimate concern. I think the priest(s) are key to making sure this does not happen (or is minimized). So are the faithful.
4) would be understand what was going on anymore?
would they care enough to find out?
I think for those that know about what is going on in the Mass, this is not an issue. For those that don't know what is going on in the Mass, it seems that the vernacular hasn't helped anyway.
I would add a 5th con:
5) I becomes more challenging to bring the young children close to the Mass if it is only available in Latin. THEY will have a much more difficult time understanding what is going on and being able to fully participate (in a meaningful, prayerful, thoughtful way) as quickly as they can right now.
Just my thoughts.
I'll comment also on some of the disadvantages:
1) I don't understand a word of it and trying to read what is being said distracts
me from praying along with the priest because I read slowly.
I agree with lpioch on this one. The more you practice, the easier it becomes. I will add that in my house we learn Hispanicized Latin pronunciations because the five Spanish vowels are identical to the five Latin vowels and because I enforce strict pronunciation with my children. When I hear Latin on EWTN or on the Latina Christiana DVDs, I hear very Anglicized pronunciations. I suspect that speakers of different languages all pronounce Latin in a way that closely mimics their own languages, so depending on the heritage of the priest, it will be easier or harder to understand, depending on the extent that you've gotten up the learning curve.
2) It seems 'not my language' and 'don't change things on me' problems and the pride and haughtiness
associated with them seem almost insurmountable to the normalization of latin in use.
Well, I'll agree with you here. Anyone who thinks its so terribly hard o say, "And with your spirit," will probably balk at saying, "Et cum spiritu tui," as well. Still, it cannot possibly be an insurmountable barrier. We say, "Y con tu espiritu," in Spanish. I had to learn the English vernacular responses after thoroughly memorizing the Spanish vernacular responses. So it can be done. I'll not claim very much humility in learning the English responses, either. But even pride can be overcome.
3) There is a potential of creating a parish divined between those
who do and do not attend masses in latin.
Parishes are already divided, along lines of acceptance of Church teaching and non-acceptance and in a host of different permutations on this theme. Furthermore, they are divided in ways that have been caused by celebrating Mass in the vernacular. English and Spanish are merely the most obvious dividing lines, and in my experience, the division is generally so sharp that what you really have are two parishes. Moreover, if you are caught in between (as I am), with one foot firmly planted in each parish, it is exhausting. I'm all for Latin precisely because it provides the best hope I can see of any unity within our parishes. Again, this is my experience.
Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you.) Et cum spiritu tui. (And with thy spirit.) This is the easy Latin at the Mass.
It’s good for Novus Ordo Mass to include some familiar and easy to translate parts of the Mass for continuity of the traditional Mass. I grew up with the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass does not guarantee reverence, unity and better understanding of the Mass than the New Order of the Mass.
In addition to the four Eucharistic Prayers that can be chosen for Sunday and weekday Masses, the Sacramentary book of the Novus Ordo Mass includes many beautiful prayers for the liturgical year as well as Mass for Marriage, funerals, feast days, etc. Do we want to hear all of these prayers and acclamations prayed in Latin for all Masses? When we understand and hear (with an attentive ear) these prayers in the vernacular language we’re better able reflect on the meaning of the words of the Mass. It fosters reverence within us. And we want to make it available to all faithful Catholics everywhere. The Mass is a sacred worship. When it comes to the Bread of Life, we are beggars. We need what is offered on the altar. We are unable to save ourselves. If we don’t partake in the Eucharist then we don’t have life in us. (John 6:35) This is serious business.
All who posted above have a deep understanding of the Mass. Ask your pastor to lend you a used Sacaramentary (General Instruction of the Rite of the Mass) for study. Sometimes a parish has an extra book that is worn because the book is used at every Mass. Read the book and imagine having to hear the prayers in Latin during all Masses. I volunteer as a sacristan and I have the opportunity to read the Sarcamentary during spare some minutes.
Ave Maria!
If the Latin Mass were available to me, I think I would go. When re-exposed to it, it came back to me even though I have not heard it since I was a young girl. I think it lived in my soul. I long for reverence! I do not have much of that at our parish Masses, sorry to say. Jokes and so forth and terrible songs are the norm.
And when I have traveled, to have parts of the Mass in Latin was like a soothing balm to me and I loved it. I would like our universal language back and the Mass of the Ages as well.
For those interested the english version of the (GIRM) mentioned above are avialble here.
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
fishman,
Thank you for the link to the GIRM. I apologize for an error in my earlier post. The Sacramentary used for the Mass is obviously another book. The table of contents is different. The cover of the Sacramentary is red - the altar servers hold the open book for the Presider of the Mass.
The Sacramentary begins with the first Sunday of Advent opening prayer and follows the liturgical year. The Eucharistic Prayers are in mid section. It ends with Masses for Holy Days of Obligation, feast days, Marriage and funeral Masses.The GIRM is also long. I aspire to read it and have read bits and pieces here and there. But with a family to raise and too much else going on, I have not read it. Perhaps this is neglect on my part, though I'd argue that it would not be neglect if the GIRM were universally followed without deviation. Such an argument is futile, of course, because our human nature is to deviate, so a better conjecture would be: it would not be neglect if the GIRM were universally followed to the best of the ability of all those responsible for liturgy and the same folk accepted charitable reproach when deviations occur.
Still, a shorter document that offers a summary of what the Mass ought to be like can be found in Sacrosanctum Concilium (which I have read but need to review).
Times change and so do people. We have to be able to approach the people of our time. Since the old LATIN LANGUAGE IS DEAD AND BURIED, it serves only one purpose for todays people nothing. Do our schools teach Latin? NO!
Do people speak Latin in everyday conversation? NO!
Get with the times. What God cares about is the salvation of SOULS! Bring souls to GOD.
Read some prophecy:
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation.
I speak to God in my language English, I also read in English.
Either I'm stubborn or the Church is still living in Mid-century.
How can I put this? without being a crack pot.
To add some perspective CHANGE, PROGRESS, MODERNIZATION, ADVANCEMENT, for people cannot stay stagnant nor can they stay in the same configuration because the soul is on going traveler it cannot remain in one place in one oasis without growing, this growth is what is called advancement. The advancement is to know God and grow within to bring more of God into the soul, His knowledge, His very existence. To become a full grown mature Spirit.
To me the Latin is old NEWS. It goes to the floor and has no value in my walk with God. Neither does it add one drop to my soul.
When the Church decided to allow Masses to be said in the natural language of each race, they made a good choice. Since it is easier to understand the words being spoken. This made quite a bit a ruckus for those who were Latin based. And they felt pretty much abandoned because they spoke a dead language. Which is interesting.
Their faith was based on language and not Jesus. This is clear. As many left because of this decision. Their faith was not the Jesus they thought of and clearly God cleared the house of those who were not faithful to Jesus. Interesting.
He removed idolaters, their Idol was Latin Mass.
The Church was trying to reach out to those who did not know Latin. Broad reach. The Church actually realized that man is man and not some drone. Lets cling to the old ways is not progress. Which caused problems all the way around. For those who did not understand Latin, they felt left out and abandoned. For instance the Old Bible written in King James thee- thy- these words are not of todays time. I find it hard for God to say Thou, Thee, Thy. As well as Caeli, pater noster to a people who speak, listen and read for instance Hungarian.
How do we bring the Gospel to todays society? Do we do as the old phoggies want and that is to bury the truth? No. Each century marks change and progress. Human kind must adapt to change and yet proclaim the Gospel which is God wants souls.
Lets say I convert a thousand and bring them to Mass, they are all staring at the surroundings other than what is being spoken in Latin. Because they are lost. And they say oh you forgot to tell us. How long do you think they will last before they run off to some denomation? Not long.
There was a poster who said: ah but the priest can interject some of his imagination and change the meaning. Well, so do we. The point is the Mass is to receive Jesus and His graces. After and Before Mass people are still people and they go back to their lives. Grace comes whether your quiet in worship or loud, but all has to be from the heart as God looks at the heart. That is where God lives if you allow him to. In fact most people leave because they have no understanding and avoid.
Too much is going on in life to learn another language. It is quicker to convert if one knows what is being said. Another words you receive more when you understand what is being said. I've sat in latin mass for a year now and I have no understanding of what is being said because I did not grow up with it neither do I think it is useful to me. Paul says in Corinthians Speaking in Tongues with no interpreter is useless. Latin to me is useless. Tongues without knowledge of that tongue is useless, endeavor to be a prophet.
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy --Revelations.
The same goes for when they broadcast Vatican Masses, it is spoken in Latin or Italian of both I do not grasp. So I mute the volume because I don't understand that language. To me it is all greek. And I say God what the heck?
Do I endeavor to learn this language? No. I don't care for it. It is like tongues. I endeavor to learn about God which is hard enough as it is. You want latin read the bible in Latin vulgate, by the liturgy in latin. so forth. But keep it out of my way it is not my natural tongue.
I think that if you reflect a little on the Church you will see that Latin is neither dead nor buried. Because it is a language no longer in common use it is one which is excellent for expressing precision of thought, as Loretta suggested. This is why encyclicals are codified in that language first and then translated to others.
To me the Latin is old NEWS. It goes to the floor and has no value in my walk with God. Neither does it add one drop to my soul.
I don’t believe that anyone is suggesting that you (or all of the converts you are bringing into the Church) will have to attend a mass said in Latin if you don’t want to. Why would you deny it to those who either 1. do understand the language, or 2. want to attend a mass that has been the mass of the church for hundreds of years, or 3. do connect with Jesus through a mass in a language that, arguably, presents the numinous to a greater degree than the vernacular?
Their faith was based on language and not Jesus. This is clear. As many left because of this decision. Their faith was not the Jesus they thought of and clearly God cleared the house of those who were not faithful to Jesus. Interesting.
He removed idolaters, their Idol was Latin Mass.
It would seem that the same charge can be leveled against those who insist on the language of their choice…that faith is based on language (as in, "I have to understand what’s being said") and not Jesus. The fact is that Jesus is present whether we understand the language or not.
Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Latin is beautiful. I have heard both Tridentine and Novus Ordo masses in Latin. The readings were always in English though. As were the intecessory prayers. The hymns in Latin are the greatest. I love the Sanctus and the Creed and Agnus Dei. My all time favorite without a doubt is the Tantum Ergo for Benediction. It melts me. And then all the hymns to Mary are sweet too: Salve Regina, Alma Mater ...
When I hear those tunes all I can say is "Put a fork in me, I'm done."
I do like the mass in English as well. I wish we would sing more heavenly songs though. Some are very good and raise me up. Others are kind of wimpy and embarassing. But I sing them anyway. I know God understands. And it is wonderful to raise my voice up with those around me. I know the Angels sing sweetly with us and that my friends is the beautiful communion of saints in action. Gotta dig it!
GK - God is good!
To commemorate the move of University College Dublin to a new campus Mozart’s Coronation Mass was celebrated recently in Cardinal Newman’s wonderful University Church (http://www.universitychurch.ie/). As well as Mozart’s music the Credo and other parts of the Mass were sung in Gregorian chant.
The Mass was very moving and devotional. It was emotional to see and hear so many singing the words remembered from pre-Vatican II times.
It was a wonderful occasion to hear God being adored with the best humans can do.
God bless,
NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Our homeschool teaches Latin. I talk to God in English and Latin, though Spanish is the primary language. If the issue is saving souls, and the way to do it is by abandoning Latin, then it is logical to conclude that my soul is not worth saving.
That may, in fact, be true, but I am hopeful we can all express a bit more charity in the meanwhile.
Thank you for the replies. Charity goes along way but often times you cannot express what is really aching and what we do not understand.
This is how I react because the answer I was given was a smurkish arrogant answer from Latin Mass goers who can't stand regular language natural to their environment Masses and have a disdain for those responsible for the change. Not all but those who have a certain zeal for Latin Mass as they feel that IT IS the Apostolic way. This is not right. As any language is suitable as long as ALL have understanding who come to participate in the ongoing Passion. See I was told Latin is the ONLY TRUE MASS. But this is not correct. The Apostles were Jews who spoke the Jewish language. As for those who say LATIN is the true Mass they are incorrect. Jesus gave the first Mass in Hebrew(Last Supper and consequently the Apostles themselves were Jewish). This is the correct Mass if you really want to know. Jesus spoke the Mass in the language He was introduced to, in Fact the Word of God gave them the Hebrew language.
Once I understood that God was interested in saving all of mankind I realized the petty little things that people get hung up on about Mass, religion, how homily should be delivered, how during the weekday Mass it is shorter than on weekends and on and on, was trivial and their hearts were far from the Truth. That is God is interested in your soul to be perfected rather than hung up on what your local parish is doing. When the Sacrifice of the Mass is taken away for a brief time in the future I wonder how people will react then? Daniel 11:31
I'm sure they will be happy to have Mass in any language as long as they receive the Host.
I'm sure I came out in a petty way with some points, my root thought is it don't matter as long as Holy Communion is the center. Because my understanding is set on the fact that Jesus is the reason for the Mass. Food for the soul; a time to touch God; a time to repose on the Passion; a time to nurture and give myself more to God; these all are the points I have ascertained; I receive visions now and then when I receive Holy Communion, of Jesus, faint but it's Him.
I read some interesting post on a website that the Devil hates Latin prayers. I'm not sure why but that's what some exorcist quoted.
Then you hear that the Devil hates the Rosary.
Then you hear that the Devil hates Mass entirely-- Host being displayed and consumed.
Then you hear that the Devil hates God and anything to do with God, i.e.,. prayers in any language, Eucharistic Adoration, Holy Water, Holy Salt, Blessed items, Priests, Bishops, Pope, and any Catholic who stands their ground in God, oh and the Catholic Bible because it has more Word.
So me who wants to remain simple and easy going find that the world is too much inside the walls. The world needs to be cleared out during any worship or gathering, so we do not desecrate that which is Most Holy and that being time with God. We're supposed to help bring Heaven on Earth. Not the other way around as is the case.
Thank you so much. I got long winded.
To say that the Devil hates Latin prayers is nothing so much as a subset of the truism that the Devil hates prayers. To qualify the notion with a particular sort (e.g. Latin or Rosary prayers, for example) merely states a particular where the general remains true. The same is true of the Mass inasmuch as it is the perfect prayer or of adoration inasmuch as it is a perfect way of getting to know Jesus when done as a complement to the Mass.
As to the notion that the vernacular Mass is inferior - or the Latin Mass somehow more perfect - one need only read the story of Sts. Cyril and Methodius (NewAdvent.org or CE or catholic.org). There are, of course, certain practices that one might wish to see excluded from Mass in whatever language, but those issues are ultimately questions for the Bishops and Pope to take up in accordance with the directives of the Liturgy Books (or whatever they are called).
I'll agree that the world is indeed too much inside the walls. One of the great reminders given us in Vatican II is that the primary evangelical call of the laity is to evangelize the world outside the sanctuary. Don't believe me, read Apostolicam Actuositatem. I myself have read it in parts, here and there. Don't be intimidated by the length; read it yourself in parts and finish as you are able. The Mass, therefore, should at least serve as a weekly replenishment of Body and Spirit (though replenishment is an inadequate word, and the Mass is so much more besides) that we might do this work. Ite missa est. Missa (or missio) not only gives us the word, Mass, but also the word, mission. It is not stretching things too much to take the implication of mission from the dismissal rite, which in English is something on the order of, "The Mass is ended. Let us go forth to serve God and one another." To serve (or love) God and neighbor is to be a Christian, and of course the very notion brings on a host of theological extrapolations and doctrinal explanations which constitute the whole of Sacred Tradition. One of the explanations of NewAdvent.org, namely the one which suggests a missing word from Ite missa est finita (Go, the Mass is ended) suggests all of this: at the border of the Mass is the Christian life as salt and light in the world. And the Christian life is primarily lived by the laity outside the walls of the parish, even if we attend daily Mass.
None of this is intended to minimize the importance of the Mass celebrated in whatever language. Quite the opposite: the Mass must nourish us in body and soul that we may carry out our mission in the world. Nor is this even the primary purpose of the Mass, which is to render worship to the Lord God. But it is a significant end provided by the Mass.
It seems to me therefore that the proper approach in deciding this question is this: Does Latin or vernacular provide the best means for you to worship God? Does Latin or vernacular provide the best means for you to prepare yourself for your mission in the world? Are there times when one or the other is more or less helpful to you in your worship? And so forth. The answers to these questions are not trivial, nor do they seek to imply that the Mass is less than what it is. Whether Latin or vernacular (or Greek, for that matter), the Mass celebrated in communion with the Bishop of Rome remains the Mass. And it is an awesome thing (though thing is really a poor word).
Now, I got long-winded.
One more thing to add: since my native language is English, it might seem odd that my preference in prayer (and Mass) would be Spanish (or Latin, for that matter). The answer is simple: I spent many years of my life as an atheist; my middle-school and high-school years in particular were marked by a formation in which God simply was a non-entity, at least from my perspective. On the other hand, I did not begin to learn Spanish until high school and was not competent in Spanish until college.
There is a realm of sensibility which is colored by formation, and its power is strong. In my case, the sensibilities which were formed in the English language and the American culture were all atheistic, even anti-Christian (though in a particular irony, I would pray privately on rare occasions). It took me years of on-again, off-again attendance of Mass (in Spanish, no less) for me to begin to step away from this burnt-in sensibility. And even then (and to this day) I find less internal resistance to the catechesis of the heart when it is not presented using English. If you’ve read many of my posts here, you may have noticed an intellectualized bent to most of them: straw, as St. Thomas Aquinas called it, and straw it is. In Spanish, I find I can get past my simpleton’s mind and enter into a religious experience that incorporates intellectual understanding with spiritual and emotional engagement. This is also true of Latin, though to be sure I am not yet competent in Latin.
I wonder if perhaps many of those who yearn for the Latin liturgy aren’t fighting a similar battle: having grown up in a secularized culture, the secular language – i.e. the vernacular – may seem to lack any transcendental sensibility or spirituality. This does not reflect anything in the vernacular that intrinsically goes against the Divine; indeed, if we accept the Genesis story of Babel, we must admit that the vernacular is Divine in its origins. But in a thoroughly secularized culture, the vernacular can get associated with the secular, atheistic sense exclusively. The Latin, given its rejection by modern culture, cannot be so associated, at least not very easily. And so, perhaps a preference for Latin comes from this sort of experience. Moreover, if some find themselves more ready to enter into the transcendental via the Latin language precisely because the vernacular seems too mundane, this may ultimately be the root of the argument that Latin liturgy is perfect while vernacular liturgy is not. Indeed, for such a one, the Latin liturgy is perfect and the vernacular is lacking, but only because of internal associations that are difficult to overcome.
If this makes sense (perhaps it does not), it may help some in mutual understanding.
Thank you for points. there's always another view point.
It's all quite simple about Mass it is more than soul and body and worship, it is beyond words of our intellect. In simplistic definition, it is where soul of man meets the soul of God and all kinds of things happen beyond the intellect. The Bounty of God for the soul of man to restore his deformed soul perfecting the soul to meet the Heavenly Father. Jesus came to reveal to us the Father who is the Great Creator.
I at one time had learned 5 different languages, German, Spanish two years in high school, Korean, Japanese and Chinese. Then of course English. As you have said all is straw. it surely is.
I don't see the big fuss of Latin in Mass. (Although I do have a fuss.) Other than that's what happened. If your heart is not into God to begin with it doesn't matter what language you use in Mass. Like for instance when I was an atheist I didn't care about language even though at the time I spoke three, (whoopie), I just new how to speak and listen to those particular tongues.
Here's what happens when I sit and participate in the Latin Mass:
1 I have to get the translated Mass on paper which has Latin on one side and English on the other.
2 As the congregation recites the prayers can't look at the English because too busy trying to listen and pronounce Latin. I can see why other languages wanted to perfect their own written languages. too awkward pronouncing. the C acts like a K on some words but acts like an S on others. Really confusing.
3 my intellect needs to taken in a break down what is being read and spoken out loud. Juggling match. If my intellect cannot break down and infuse, my soul is famished so is my intellect.
4 After all is said and done I feel like well Lord I tried but, at least I got to talk to you and bond. once again-- after receiving the Host. I muddle through. Wow I really felt refreshed only after I received the Host.
The interesting point between the two Masses the priests devote more into the Latin because they feel it's the true Mass. Well son of gun! I guess the other mass is less than and not equal to?!? I might as well stay home if they feel that way and bring home Holy Water and sprinkle it on a cracker, pour a glass of red wine and drop some Holy Water into it and recite the liturgy and then God who knows my heart will even bless it. That's how strong I believe. Yet the problem is the mentality between the two preferences of Mass. Which the Bishops and whoever is in charge need to stress that both Masses are equal and none is lesser because we are providing the people with the Host and worship.
The nice thing about about Latin is they bring out all the bells whistles which they do not at the other Mass. Smoke and clothing of the Priests and so on. I think they missed the point it is Jesus, God the center of the Mass. This kind of non-sense of preferences is what causes schism and so forth. Hey we are going to allow regular procession of Mass in your own native tongue. But you cannot smoke the altar because that is exclusively for Latin which we are playing down for the denominated bunch to come and worship. What non-sense. This is smoke and mirrors. Lets be real and quit being too intellectual and human. When dealing with God we need to remind ourselves it is more then intellect, it is spiritual.
It seems our leaders in the Vatican have nothing better to do than confuse the church at times they seem to be bickering over human ideas rather than Godly ones. It is so simple. Yet so complicated. The European Mentality.
Mass is fantastic because we get to consume God. For those who do not understand what this means- Break down: Our souls are infused into the flesh. In order for the soul and body to grow and be perfected we need to consume the Host. No other way. The Creator made Himself as Spiritual Food for us in the little wafer. Just as the flesh needs to eat and grow, the soul needs to eat and grow spiritually and more perfectly. From consuming God, you may actually be healed physically and for sure spiritually. There have been many privately held healings.
Thanks again. I'm getting the picture more clearly.
After much meditation, I believe that Latin is a good thing for the Mass and other intentions.
But to say to those who do not understand Latin and that Latin Mass is the blitz and leave the Church because the priority given it to is less than what it was in the past status is an error and we should all give way to trying to understand the Church leaders who are doing their best to make everyone happy within the Church. Because we are still human and because we're endeavoring to be more like Christ we are prone to mistakes and errors along the way. I've made too many already. My God forgive me and give me strength and courage to stand up for all the right things according to His riches and glory.
I criticized ignorantly because I was told negative information originally and from those who negatively criticized the Church for lowering Latin Mass status. I have to say that this caused a well of pride to break out from me and it was evident in my earlier posts. I apologize for the harsh negative posts I will leave them there to show myself how horrid pride is.
thank you for understanding.
I certainly understand, and I am humbled by witnessing your change of heart. May I be as ready to accept that I may not always be right - with a humble heart. God bless you and thank you for your example!
I haven't really read any of this thread after the initial post, but we've just started the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin at our parish. We even have Gregorian Chant! The positive reactions were overwhelming and include the church, which holds 750 people, being filled to over 1000! Every Latin Mass has exploded into standing room only. We have rotated the Mass in Latin to the different times so every congregation at every time on Sunday is able to experience the traditional liturgy.
The negative reactions have included the usual, "Latin Mass is a regression in the Church". One priest at another parish even made a mockery of it DURING one daily Mass. Just after finishing his homily, he walked back to the altar, turned facing the unused high-altar, and said "This is the way Fr. "Smith" says Mass. Maybe I'll do that too," and chuckled to himself.
My brother says those are our "stubborn fathers" that will die off before we enter the promised land.
All in all, the numbers don't lie. Every Latin Mass, even the times that are normally less attended times, are filled to capacity when we celebrate in Latin with Chant.
The people want the Latin Mass. The Pope wants the Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo keeps the spirit in a this-worldly mode. It has failed to transform western society. We must return to the ancientmost rites in their sacred tongue.
The focus of Novus Ordo is not on Christ, but on the people, on the priest
A diamond looks good and is a real diamond. It needs beautiful casing as a ring, not a piece of plastic
Both masses are valid. Both are efficacious. The old mass is adorned properly
The tridentine mass has preserved the actions of the ancient Hebrew priests. The priest prays the same direction as the people, it is intercession. It has power. It is the Mass of ages, the mass of all time, how can it be forbidden by bishops?
The world is hanging by a thread. Time is overdue for a change.
Folk dont understand latin, but they dont have too, that is the priest's job. Latin is the boundry language of the sacred, a door, like hebrew, greek. The other faiths all use their foundational language, why should we not use ours?
Churchbeast - is not our fondational language either greek or aramic? Latin was strongly opposed in it's use by some people in the prior to 500 because they thought it was wrong to translate the greek mass into the 'common tonge' , which was at the time latin.
Don't get me wrong, I like latin.
I don't think the argument that people don't understand it holds much weight. Most english speakers don't understand the meaning of the english words being spoken by the priest either because they don't understand the theology.
Myself I am pleased to see the validation of the use of latin by the vatican because in my mind it puts the focus back on unity of the whole body of christ in a single sacrament.
RE: "Doesn't anyone remember the Dialogue Masses said and sung in the 1950's and earlier? "I'll date myself too. Yes I remember.
Hey Pristinus! Your turn to date yourself.
Do we need to start an "elders" sub-forum?
- Regards,
- Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)
I do not think I would care for the entire NO to be in Latin, but then I haven't experienced it. If I had little children at home, I would not like it unless I thought the kids were getting good exposure to Latin in schooling. (As we only did HS with 3/4 of them, I don't know what it would be like beginning in 1st grade.)
I would like to see certain of the congregation's responses done in Latin (I'd like the creed to be done in Latin too), & I would like to see more Gregorian chant. However, there are some nice English hymns out there.
- Regards,
- Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic & generally inveterate amateur)
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