Just a short time ago Pope Benedict the sixteenth decreed that (LIMBO) a two thousand year teaching of the catholic church did not exsist and was simply a catholic church hoax.
Neither Pope Benedict or the church has seen fit to apologise to humanity for this two thousand year sin of deception.
Just a short time ago Pope Benedict the sixteenth decreed that (LIMBO) a two thousand year teaching of the catholic church did not exsist and was simply a catholic church hoax.
Actually Vatican Council II declared the teaching of Limbo is not a doctrine or dogma of the Church. The teaching of Limbo came from St. Augustine and Vatican Council II declares concept of Limbo a theologian’s opinion. Limbo is not included in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. For me it’s not a big issue and no apology is necessary from Pope Benedict XVI.
First of all, it has never been a teaching of the Catholic Church. For you to make such a claim, you will have to provide evidence (documents? writings? not of speculation or by individuals, but by the Church herself)
Secondly, he never said it was a Catholic Church hoax. Again, reference please?
It is not a sin of deception. It is a theological "tool" if you will. It was an attempt to explain a small aspect of life (and death) that is not evident through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
If that is difficult to understand, it is quite akin to the end-of-the-19th century "ether" that scientists used to explain how light travels. It was a hypothesis...a theoretical "tool" if you will. Further study and development of scientific knowledge led scientists to understand there was no such thing. Nor need of such an abstract construct.
Exact same principle.
And the scientists never claimed ether was a hoax. Nor did they apologize for years of deception.
Now it is your turn to recognize that your claims/assertions are false, and certainly written in a style that is an attack on our beloved Church. It is your turn to apologize for typing up such deception.
We are patiently waiting.
RE: " It is your turn to apologize for typing up such deception."Nicely put. However, I will not be holding my breath. Presuming your CE e-mail is formed in a fashion similar to mine I tried to reach you to explain the basis of my intuition but it has failed..
Does "woburn" mean anything to you?
pouliot, I actually don't have CE email.
(shhhhh...don't tell them that!)
But if you click on "lpioch" and on the "contact" tab, you can send me email.
Woburn? Of course it means something to me. :-)
I'm not very opaque, even on the 'net.
RE: "Contact"That doesn't seem to work for me for some reason but I will try it again on your guidance. Meantime I tried reaching you at an address you posted on one of the forums some time ago. If it has reached you I will explain in another e-mail why I am interested in woburn.
RE: "contact guidance"lpioch isn't active in any way. There doesn't seem to be a link under any of the "handles" on this page, not just you own. Do any of them work for you?
How about this...
email me at my account I use freely over the internet (and has survived spam attacks since 1998). I'll give you my true email after that.
(New kid on the block,just waiving a hand.)
(Woburn.)
Is also a city in Massachusetts.
(New kid on the block,just waiving a hand.)
Science and religian do not mix and i think that you know that.
Then you don't know me.
Science and religion do mix, and can and should never be contradictory. Did you read the link I provided?
Limbo is in the scriptures, but it is worded as 'the Dead' or where the faithful of God went after bodily death. Or Abraham's bosom.
I suspect the Churches dogma changed because they decided to be more Christ-centric. Maybe the elders felt that this teaching no longer applies; were in times 'past' and time to 'move forward'. Another words what's more behooving to the current doctrines of faith. Certain things are for history lessons, certain things are absolutely necessary and certain things are being tested, tried. Even after an answer is found it may not be favorable or useful.
We know that God's Laws given to the Jews is forever-- 10 commandments. These are to be embedded in each soul who will live in Heaven. Conscience decision with a serious drive.
We know that the Jews used to sacrifice animals for sin covering. It is not practiced in the Church because Jesus became the sacrifice. We consume the sacrifice instead. To cover us and heal us and to give us Hope.
Limbo was necessary before Christ as the gates of heaven were closed; no one went to heaven to stay; it is no longer needed. So it "was". And is in some category of the Churches History? Well, can't really say Churches History because if limbo was for those who waited to be free, then it was prior. What's interesting about limbo is that this proves souls were held up from entering heaven and the soul is eternal, while the flesh returns to dust. But, the faith also says our bodies will be re-animated to stand before God in judgment. This latter part is somewhat confusing to converse about. As it has caused all kinds of arguments. So it is better to be more simple in our faith than having thousand dogmas of ill concern. Because what is most important is that we make it to heaven. To find God and live.
Amen
(New kid on the block,just waiving a hand.)
Or perhaps thay felt that the publick no longer believed them.
possible,
I think today people have too many distractions. Lets take the TV for example, this is just one of the biggies. A week later someone says oh, what was that you said last week? Oh, right Mass. Brains are packed with visions of grandeur for that far away place of vacation.
I agree lpioch. Science and religion ultimately will not contradict each other. If one understood everything there is to know about science, and everything there is to know about Christianity, the two would not clash.
The problem of course, is that we live here and now, and we simply do not understand all there is to know about science or religion. And so like small children, when we see something that in our small minds and because of our limited understanding of both science and Christ seems like a contradiction, we bawl and start hollering that the sky is falling, proclaiming that either science is wrong or Christ is wrong.
In reality of course, nothing could be farther from the truth, and there simply is no problem between Christ and science.
One sense of Limbo, sometimes called the Limbo of the Fathers (Adam, Eve, Abraham etc.) follows from when Christ went down to "hell" - Sheol - Hades (from Hebrew and Greek) and opened the gates of heaven for the just who had gone before him. ccc 633, 637.
That is one sense of Limbo but the one in question in the posts above, which was never established doctrine being merely theological speculation, was an attempt to explain where the souls of un-baptised babies went.
This second more common sense of Limbo is the one that the Church most recently has rejected and instead: ccc 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.....
Hope that helps clear things up.
Dado
AMDG
dado,
From USCCB
Psalm 15:10 5 For you will not abandon me to Sheol, nor let your faithful servant see the pit.
Christ did not go to hell, but went to the dead.
Read Luke 17:20 - 31
Hell and limbo are two different places
Revelation 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.
Limbo of the Fathers is just a term used for the abode of the dead, read ccc 633. From the Apostles Creed ccc 631 "He descended into hell on the third day he rose again".
The other usage for Limbo which has been rejected is that of a Limbo where reside the souls of infants who die without Baptism.
So in essence there was a Limbo of the Fathers, the abode of the dead, but there is no Limbo defined as the residence of the aformentioned infants.
If you wish to not use the "Limbo of the Fathers" as shorthand for the abode of the dead, sheol etc. where awaited the just souls then the term limbo can be dispensed with entirely.
In any case I would not use the term limbo without a qualifier as to which of the above I was referring.
Dado,
AMDG
Dado,
The Church is Apostolic.
The scriptures came before the CCC. The CCC according to this topic is in error and needs to be changed to reflect to show the truth rather than someones ideas.
Limbo was taught in it's worded use Limbo by Jews before Christ and the Apostles. So it is not just a terminology but a place.
Think about this in terms of who's who.
Hell is Satan and his followers throne or dwelling place.
I apologize for the wrong reference to the post above. This is the correct chapter.
Luke 16:20 -31
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.
This is a parable but it is true depiction of how it was before Christ went to the Dead in Limbo.
From Limbo Abraham saw hell and vice versa.
(New kid on the block,just waiving a hand.)
(Heaven,hell,and the lake of fire.)
Do you know where heaven is?
Do you know where hell is?
Do you know where the lake of fire is?
If i did not know where i was going would you follow me???
RE: "This is a parable but it is true depiction of how it was before Christ went to the Dead in Limbo.If you are using "true" in the common sense, I believe you are wrong in your understanding & I disagree with your post.From Limbo Abraham saw hell and vice versa."
Also, asserting that Abraham "sees" hell & thus that the parable is stating theological fact about the relative realities, I also believe your understanding is inadequate, & I disagree with you in what you have posted.
Let us start with the fact that this passage comes to us from the Greek. Then, we must ask, what was the Greek word that has been translated as "hell" and what was its Greek meaning at the time that Luke's account was commited to writing. Once this has been done, we can move on to understanding what is being explained here. Here I have done some of the research for you. "Hades" is the Greek word & it means "place of the dead." St. Luke wasn't telling his listeners that the exchange took place between the "paradise" of the Jews (bosom of Abraham) & hell (of Satan). So you have gotten off on the wrong foot. Do you have a copy of Jerome's Commentary that you can consult, & so continue the study on your own?
You must realize that there is great danger in taking a verse in isolation of the entire Gospel. I think Mrs. Pioch has pointed this out elsewhere.
RE: "The CCC according to this topic is in error and needs to be changed to reflect to show the truth rather than someones ideas.I believe you are wrong & I disagree with what you have posted.Limbo was taught in it's worded use Limbo by Jews before Christ and the Apostles. So it is not just a terminology but a place."
RE: "If I did not know where i was going..."Tell us, where are you going? How are you planning to get there?
I would humbly suggest that bhokuto is mistaken and is simply confusing limbo with the term purgatory. Purgatory is the "place" or "state of being" that holds the spirit and souls of the dead who have yet to be completely healed of all transgression and sin from their earthly lives. This would include all spirit/souls from Adam and Eve to the present day who are not ready, so to speak, or are not yet perfect—which I believe is a requirement to access heaven. Hell, on the other hand, is not a place for the dead but for the damned.
Limbo is a construct of St. Augustine and is directly related to, and is a possible result of, his understanding of original sin. Thus, the more interesting problem is with the doctrine of Original Sin—also coined by Augustine—and not with Limbo. The two are intimately related, as Limbo becomes one of the unwanted results of Original Sin. The hypothesis of Limbo is a minor stumbling block compared to the vast chasm that the doctrine of Original sin presents itself as. Troublesome stuff.
Yes, Zachaeus, we are all troubled by original sin. Not the doctrine nearly as much as the sin itself....
Anyway, Augustine was thoroughly Pauline in his treatment of original sin, so you might have a problem with the Apostle. But if so, not to worry, for the Holy Father has declared that we shall have an entire Holy Year devoted to St. Paul. Hooray!
Mark Shea has a brilliant article on the CE homepage that sort of addresses this notion of Original sin and some of the problems that arise from it. My problem is with the origin of Original Sin and that it is almost entirely based on the biblical account of Adam and Eve. This scripture is also the foundation for Paul and Augustine and Original Sin.
What is current Church teaching on Adam and Eve in relation to the Church's position on evolution and such? Do we believe in a single set of parents from which the three races have descended? If we toss out Adam and Eve then it should follow that we need to toss out Original Sin and of course there goes Limbo. It would appear that a lot of problems would then be solved.
If I am not mistaken, to be Catholic, one must uphold the belief that we all decended from 1 set of parents (Adam and Eve). I'm flailing, however, to remember the source to quote showing this doctrine of the Church. Of course, it is easily derivable from all that is in the Catechism...but I'm pretty sure I've seen a more direct statement of such.
So...anyone else on CE happen to know a more authoritative statement than my own "If I am not mistaken..." with doesn't carry much weight?!
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Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge