i have been in a discussion on a christian site-i joined before finding this wonderful site- about the bible and what it says about drinking alcohol. they keep repeating that the wine at the wedding feast, at the last supper, etc. was "grape juice". what is the fact on that..or does anybody know?
First of all the bible indicates that wine makes people drunk in several locations.
Ephesians 5:18, we are told to "be not drunk with wine...but be filled with the Spirit."
Habakkuk 2:15,"Woe to him who gives his neighbor intoxicating drink."
Noah gets drunk ect.
Secondly in the wedding feast story the steward remarks that usually people serve the inferior wine last because the guest do not taste it as well as the first wine ( this would not happen if the wine did not contain alcohol.)
I haven't really had enough Greek / Hebrew to rebut the 'sometimes' claim that the words used in the bible to refer to 'grape juice' / grape wine / wine are synonymous. I can tell you that if you store grape juice for more then a few days , without refrigeration even in a fairly controlled environment you will have 1 of three things.
1) alcoholic wine
2) vinegar
3) putrid undrinkable liquid with fungus growing in it that would make you very ill if you tried to drink it.
So unless it was grape harvest season 90 % of the time when the ancients referred to stored grape juice they were talking about a liquid that contained sufficient alcohol to prevent its purification.
The only reasons we can store any kind of fruit juice for more then a few days now is because we have refrigeration and pasteurization , both of which were techniques unheard of prior to the 19th century.
So no, the wine in the bible was not grape juice in the modern sense. More likely almost all ‘grape juice’ in the bible was in fact alcoholic.
The ‘grape juice’ at the last supper which occurred probably in (April?) would have had to have lasted since the last grape harvest the previous September and be a minimum of a year old. The ancients would have had no technique to preserve grape juice that length of time unless it contained alcohol.
thank you for that. now i do not know whether to pass on the info you shared or just drop the whole discussion:0)
You might ask the question:
Given that the last supper was in april or late march :
http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/passoverdate.html
and grapes are havested in late summer:
http://www.eat-online.net/english/habits/croatia/grapes_ripen.htm
how do you expain the preservation of non-alcholic grape juice for 8 month without refrigeration?
Hint:
The normal way to preserve 'grape juice' is by fermentation which starts immedately and ends in 4-10 days after the grapes are crushed and is caused by yeast the exists naturally on the grape skin.
barring some other explination that I have no knowledge of the wine at the last supper could make you drunk.
If you only had fresh grape juice a week or two out of the year wouldn't you tend to call all the other stuff 'grape juice' as well. Why have a special word for something that is only around 2 weeks out of te year?
The following will not be helpful in debating with your non-Catholic Christian friends:
Protestants are sorta known for disagreeing with traditional Catholic teaching for the sake of supporting their own beliefs (ex John 6 says nothing about the last supper being symbolic, apostolic succession, the apostles were given the power to forgive sins). Why would claiming grape juice be any different?
Many denominations also believe God allows things like contraception and abortion, gay marriage, Jesus was married...the list goes on.
I agree with fishman, don't say anything unless you feel called too.
I got into a very similar discussion with my niece who graduated from Pensacola Christian College. She made the comment that Jesus didn't serve wine at the last supper but fermented grape juice. Now I didn't go to college but I felt like she was being side-tracked by what I call a "bible thumper". So I told her to look up in any encyclopedia or even a dictionary to read the definition of wine. This really through her a "curve". I think she was half expecting me to come back with some Catholic response. ( I did but it was called truth and she didn't recognize it).
But this kind of response from me started mess I didn't intend to start. Here is what happened.
1. Her mother (born and raised catholic but became a 'born against" er I should say born again fundamentalist baptist) told her not to ask me questions like that.
2. Her professor at college called me told me I was wrong and that I would burn in hell for two reasons.
a. I was not agreeing with what was in the holy Scriptures and was implying that Christ drank booze. His word not mine.
b. I was a Catholic
3. Her pastor called me and also told me I was wrong and a sinner for trying to justify drinking alcohol and indicating that Jesus would allow something as evil as alcohol to enter his pure body. He also told me I would burn in hell for practicing a pagan religion.
4. Both the professor and pastor told me that all alcohol was evil and alcohol was an invention of Satan himself.
5. When I attended her graduation I was even chastised some by members of her school, her college teachers, and her fiancé at the time.
For folks like this I tell them that I love them and tell them I will pray for them because they are stupid. Note here. It's not always smart to tell a fundamentalist they are stupid. Not unless you like Bibles shoved under your nose and being thumped.
Now is alcohol bad? Yes if you use it excessively and allow it to abuse you.
Also I'm pretty sure that wine or beer or even distilled spirits are not an invention of Satan. Mainly because in those days how else would some drinks be stored? Unless you like your juice with a nice growth of fungus.
Tarheel
I agree with your niece, at the last supper fermented grape juice was seerved. We call this wine.
God bless,
NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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RE: grape vs. wineThank you for visitng the forums and for posting your question. I'm sorry I missed the opportunity to respond. The best has already been posted.
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