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Order of Ceremonies of the Mass

(19 posts)

wljewell - Member
God loves you . http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/misc/holymass.htm#judica”>Ceremonies of the Mass Permit me to leave the above link to a site which explains the Latin rite Mass in its particulars of the order of the Mass. The order of Mass given is of the old, traditional, ‘Tridentine’ ‘extraordinary’ rite, renewed for celebration by the gift of the recent motu proprio of Pope Benedict XVI. That his declaration is ‘motu proprio’ means the Pope issued the document of specifications “of his own accord” – with no (formal) immediate prior consultation and concurrence with fellow bishops about the specific vehicle. Actually, his authority on this rite of the Mass traces itself to the Council of Trent (three major sessions between 1545 and 1563) and up through the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965); this latter at which Pope Benedict XVI, as Father Joseph Alois Ratzinger, served as theological consultant before becoming Archbishop of Munich and Freising, Cardinal and now Pope. This explanation of the Mass ceremonies has a decent in-depth examination of the Credo. The rest of the site is deeply Latinate - in case you wanted to take a look at Latin. Most Latin is NOT translated to English, though the Raccolta, the manual of prayers to which indulgences are attached, is translated. The term ‘Tridentine’ comes from the ancient Latin name of the Italian city of Trento, which is Tridentum. Remember, I love you, too Reminding that we are all on the same side - His, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member

Thank you.  This website should answer a lot of questions I have about a latin mass.

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear tarheel, I believe the Latin mass is all about a Holy Language. Many of the rituals worldwide are designed to glorify the language and the music of the mass. I attended Aramic mass which is the language Christ spoke most frequently and it was glorious in speech and song. I also attended a Ukrainian mass which was all so very beautiful. The Latin mass is reminiscient of the earlier American days of glorifying language which is now returning to many who view American speech as gutteral verbage. Similar to the speech of "Refined" British or French Elite, they developed a glorified language which set them apart from the "common" folk. Latin has long been considered a Holy Language and I am happy that it is returning to it's former glory.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother and my name is Royal.

Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member

Thanks Royal.  I too have attended masses in languages other than my own (English and Cajun).  In the Philippines I attended mass with my wife and every first Saturday here in Mobile the Fil-Am group has a Filipino Mass that is in Tagalog.  I speak very little but it is a heart warming service.  In Belgium I attended masses in French.  Again I felt the same at that mass as I did those in English.  I think what it all boils down to is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will speak to us in a language our hearts speak.

 

I have never attended a Latin Mass but look forward to it.

 

Thanks to all

Tarheel

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . Tarheel, and others, I was a Latin-langauge choir boy - four years a student of the Latin that undergirded the Rite and rituals. The simple hearing of 'Deus' - 'Deum', 'Deo', 'Dei' in declensions - 'GOD' - could make my heart quicken whether I understood every minutia of term of the rest of the verse or sentence. The Latin hymns of the Creed as 'Credo in unum Deum' could nearly lift us off our feet, so majestic were the pieces. There is little of common prayers and responses I did not understand enough to know what we were praying for - and, all this before I was fifteen. Moreover, with as much of our English language as is rooted in Latin, I have had a jump on meanings of words without a dictionary - for realizing and appreciating the Latin roots. Three vowel hints: 'a' in Latin is as in 'hah'; 'e' in Latin sounds like 'a' and is as in 'hay'; 'i' in Latin sounds like 'e' - as in 'see'. And, 'o' is most often 'o', 'u' is most often 'u' . . . . . . and Latin especially in chant can still give this choir boy the chills of recognition and mystery. Remember, I love you, too Reminding that we are all on the same side - His, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
royal osiodhachain, Tarheel, P.S. all speak of the "sounds" that appealed to them. 

P.S. is clear on being able to understand "well-enough" what the (latin) words meant.  What is it about these languages of which our fluency is somewhat less, that gives rise to this fascination?  Is it just the "strange" & its power to mezmerize?

 

 

 

 

Does this too exude mysticism & raw force?

    Carles li reis, nostre emperere magnes
    Set anz tuz pleins ad estet en Espaigne: 
    Tresqu'en la mer cunquist la tere altaigne. 
    N'i ad castel ki devant lui remaigne; 

    Mur ne citet n'i est remes a fraindre, 
    Fors Sarraguce, ki est en une muntaigne. 
    Li reis Marsilie la tient, ki Deu nen aimet; 
    Mahumet sert e Apollin recleimet:
    Nes poet guarder que mals ne l'i ateignet.
    AOI.

And what about this?

Wari, tekonnoronkwanious, ise tsiati roranerenstaka, Rawennio seniwekon, sonhaa tsiui hiakounienstha, lesos oni hetsientha, raonhaa tsini honwasennaiens. Wari, saiatakenti, Niio hetsienha, takwaterennaienhs ionkwarwanerahakso, nonwa nok oni tsi nenttiakwenneionsere.

Hint: Its a prayer you all know.

And another:

Takwaien; 'a ne karonhi:ake teshi:teron, alesa'sen:naien, aiesawenniios:take, aiseawennara:kwake ne ohontsia:ke tsini:iot ne karonhia:ke kiesawennarakwa. Takwa:nont ne kienwen:te' iakionhe'kwen nia 'tewennisera:ke sahsa' nikonhrhen ne ionkwariwane:ren tsini:lot ni:i tsionkwa'nikonhrhens ne othenon ionki'nikonraksa:ta' ne onkwe, tosa aionkwa'senni ne kariwane:ren ahkwekon aehren shawit ne io'taksen:se. Etho Naia:wen.

Regards,
Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic [Latin rite] & generally inveterate amateur)
Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member
Can't read these very well but I think one is the Our Father. 
Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear pouliot, God came down from heaven to see the tower of Babel. He saw that men united in a single cause then decided to confuse their language  and send them out all over the face of the earth. My fascination with language pertains to the Catholic mass. I am least interested in language for the sake of language. When it comes time to go to church and to what Mass, I enjoy immensely the Mass in every form allowed by Catholic Doctrine. I know that certain persons are sensitive to changes in the Mass ritual and language although I am not. I have been around the world several times and participated in the Holy Mass in many countries and I know that the source and summit of the Mass is the body, blood, soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If you wish to impress me, try to impart some of your knowledge of any foreign Mass ritual. I will be delighted. Dominus vobiscum! In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

This Latin thing is complicated. 

I am confused 

Royal wrote: 

….  they developed a glorified language which set them apart from the "common" folk. Latin has long been considered a Holy Language and I am happy that it is returning to it's former glory. 

How is Latin a Holy Language?  The Bible was not written in Latin. It was not used in the early church.  The New Testament was written in Koine Greek, that is “common Greek”, the common language used by ordinary uneducated people throughout the Roman Empire. 

Perhaps Warren could resolve more of my problems.  

How does credo mean we believe? Why is peccata in qui tollis peccata mundi translated as sin and not sins? 

In CE I read about sancta sanctorum.  This has been discussed, but not to my satisfaction.  Sancta sanctorum means the holy things of the Holy things, while sanctum sanctorum is usually used, which means the holy thing of the holy things, Holy of Holies.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
“Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me"

Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
Re: royal osiodhachain's post:
RE: "If you wish to impress me..."

Why would I want to impress anyone?

My purpose was to explore what reasons might exist for people being fascinated with the Mass in Latin.

Is it just unfamiliarity with Latin?

Thus I offered quotes in some other languages likely to be unfamiliar to the people posting here to solicit their comments on whether the quotes seem powerful or mysterious, etc.

You may respond to this question.

Regards,
Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic [Latin rite] & generally inveterate amateur)
Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
Re: Tarheel's post:
RE: "I think one is the Our Father"

Nia:wen.  Quite an accomplishment, I think.

Whichever one it is, would you care share the reaction to realizing it was a prayer known to you, although not in as recognizable form as the one with which you are familiar?

Was there anything in that reaction that is similar to your hearing a Latin prayer you recognize only as a prayer but can't quite put your finger on why you recognize it?

(I don't mean to put you under a microscope here; it's just that no one else has answered yet.)

Regards,
Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic [Latin rite] & generally inveterate amateur)
Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
Re: NoelFitz's post:
RE: "How does credo mean we believe? "

Excuse me NoelFitz, while waiting for Warren, "credo" is the first person singular of "credere" meaning "to believe."  Thus, "credo" means literally "I believe."

My guess is that "credere" is an irregular verb but I can't find a web reference after looking & my Latin books are packed.  Hope this helps somewhat, but perhaps I am missing a deeper question?
Regards,
Old Sigma (Cradle Catholic [Latin rite] & generally inveterate amateur)
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Carles li reis, nostre emperere magnes

The Song of Roland

Wari, tekonnoronkwanious, ise tsiati roranerenstaka,

Every morning Kateri would go out, struggling in the deep snow in the wintertime, and she'd recite the Rosary whilst walking around the edge of a cornfield. Her hands would be near-frozen, yet she'd carry on, reciting the Hail Mary in her native tongue:

Wari, tekonnoronkwanious, ise tsiati roranerenstaka, Rawennio seniwekon, sonhaa tsiui hiakounienstha, lesos oni hetsientha, raonhaa tsini honwasennaiens. Wari, saiatakenti, Niio hetsienha, takwaterennaienhs ionkwarwanerahakso, nonwa nok oni tsi nenttiakwenneionsere.

Above is the Hail Mary in the Mohawk language

The Lord's Prayer in Mohawk

Takwaien; 'a ne karonhi:ake teshi:teron, alesa'sen:naien, aiesawenniios:take, aiseawennara:kwake ne ohontsia:ke tsini:iot ne karonhia:ke kiesawennarakwa. Takwa:nont ne kienwen:te' iakionhe'kwen nia 'tewennisera:ke sahsa' nikonhrhen ne ionkwariwane:ren tsini:lot ni:i tsionkwa'nikonhrhens ne othenon ionki'nikonraksa:ta' ne onkwe, tosa aionkwa'senni ne kariwane:ren ahkwekon aehren shawit ne io'taksen:se. Etho Naia:wen.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
fishman - Member

There is nothing mystical about latin:

 “they developed a glorified language which set them apart from the "common" folk. Latin has long been considered a Holy Language and I am happy that it is returning to it's former glorythey developed a glorified language which set them apart from the "common" folk. Latin has long been considered a Holy Language and I am happy that it is returning to it's former glory. “ The terms ‘Latin vulgate’ literally means ‘the common Latin’ and it was a work of translating the Greek texts into the vernacular.   The liturgy was translated into the vernacular before.  It was translated from Greek to Latin, and the translation caused almost the same kind of turmoil then as it did when the elders ( bishops) decided to translate into the vernacular again at the second console of the Vatican. The great advantage of a signal language is UNITY, the great disadvantage is that it is more difficult to teach with.  So it seems appropriate that when the faith is under attack that a certain emphasis should be put on teaching.  Still we must not neglect unity. One thing I find a odd trend is that many parishes now offer the mass in multiple languages.  At least here in the U.S.A. There is mass offered in Spanish, English and often Korean or the language of some other large ethnicity within the parish.  It was specifically under this situation that the Vatican encouraged the use of Latin as the language for ‘ at minimum’ the consecration in order to ‘encourage unity within the congregation’ and it is still also the recommended language for masses that have large multi-national crowds.
Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member

Well pouliot I know that there is something when I hear a prayer in a language foreign that touches me inside.  In fact I feel this on first Saturdays when my family and I attend a Filipino mass here in Mobile.  I recite the prayers in Tagalog and do feel a "warmth" inside.  But so far this is only when the prayers are recited.  I only occasionally get this feeling during the readings and homily.

 

Prayers allow our souls and heart to speak and I guess they don't need a particular language to open our hearts to God.

 

Tarheel

Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member

I agree Fishman, Latin is not just for the Tridentine mass.  The use of Latin (or Greek for the Kyrie) during parts of the Novus Ordo mass, whether the mass itself is in English, Spanish, or one of the great Asian languages is an excellent idea.

I hope that thanks to Pope Benedict's wisdom and motu proprio, as people take another look at Latin (or Greek for the Kryie), they will see how in fact these languages (mainly Latin) can be helpful within the Church as a unifying force.

Life is often a practical matter.  In our parish (in California, near Sacramento) we have English mass at 9:00 and 10:30 am, and Spanish mass at 7:30 am and 12:30 pm.  The fact is that we live in a society where many people work on Sundays and that is not going to change anytime soon; others have sincere familiy obligations on weekends that require their attention but that conflict with the mass times in their own language.  Sometimes, due to people's private schedules and/or commitments, or for whatever reason, if they want to fulfill their Sunday obligation, a person who does not understand Spanish would need to attend Spanish mass and sometimes, again for whatever reason, someone who does not understand English would need to attend an English mass.  Some people no doubt simply skip mass entirely if due to their own schedule they cannot attend mass in their own language, and that is sad. 

In these situations, which are not uncommon by the way, if all masses in all languages used at least some Latin, those in whose language the mass is not at the moment being offered would at least understand and therefore hopefully be inspired by the most important parts of the mass, and they hopefully would also realize and take comfort in the fact that whatever our race or native tongue, we are all Catholics; brothers in Christ. 

If an English-only person who had to work on Sunday (e.g., nurse, doctor, store clerk, whatever) knew that some of the main parts of the Spanish mass would be in Latin, they would be more comfortable attending Spanish mass and would not be as likely to skip mass altogether because they could not find an English mass that fit their schedule.  The same would be true for a Spanish speaking person.  If the Spanish speaker knew that some of the main parts of the English mass would be in Latin, they would be more comfortable attending the English mass.

Along with not missing mass, these folks would also gain a better understanding of and appreciation for the other group of people (i.e., the group in whose language the mass was being offfered), and that of course is always good in a general, cross-cultural, or societal sense.

Given the demographics of our nation today, especially in the more culturally diverse urban areas, I do not understand why so many Catholics do not yet see the value of a basic, common international language for the Church.  However I think as time passes, with Pope Benedict's recent motu proprio, and Latin (and even some Greek) beginning to come back to mass, people will come to understand their value.

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear Noel, In America during the 30s-60s the Catholics were all treated with the latin or tridentine mass. latin was considered a holy language because we grew up with a latin mass, not an english mass. English was imported from Britain to the US then slurred from it's original royal context to a more common, gutteral english which was not really english at all but a new form of american language. We knew nothing other than latin for mass and that is why we considered it holy and why we want the latin or tridentine mass back in our lives and our memory. Problem is, many Catholic priests in America need to learn the tridentine mass rubrics and the language of latin. Many of the American missalettes are still posting latin phrasings alongside the english translation. In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal
Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear fishman, Latin was considered a Holy Language because it was the only language of the mass for those of us raised during the 30s-60s. We did not know an english mass until much later. The majority of our lives was raised in the latin mass,and that is why we want it back because it holds memories for us that are irreplaceable.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive

Dear pouliot, I am amazed that you missed the latin mass generation. I was raised on the latin mass, I am not attracted to latin because it it unfamiliar, I am attracted to latin mass because it is all too familiar for me. Mass in english sounds like a foreign language to my ears. I long for the days when the priest stood with his back to us and facing the altar saying, Dominus vobiscum! and we respond: Et cum spiritu tuo! Oremus!

To those of us who were raised on latin or tridentine mass, there is nothing that can compare with the extreme adoration we felt toward Christ at that time.

In the Holy Love of God I am your brother in Christ and my name is Royal

Posted 1 year ago #

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