Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life

The Real Presence and Post-Modernism/Relativism

(62 posts)

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noelfitz - Member

In a recent discussion I held that Christ is truly present in the Blessed Eucharist; another contributor disagreed with me.

Lpioch wrote:

So both of you stop bickering with each other.

I respect very much Loretta’s solid grasp of the faith and her sound contributions to CE. Thus I am upset by her comment.

The view expressed by the other contributor that Christ is not truly present in the Eucharist did not disturb me, rather it was Loretta’s opinion that we were both right and we were just bickering with each other. Thus she is fundamentally denying the existence of truth.

She seems to say that it is correct to say Christ is truly present in the Blessed Eucharist and equally it is true to say he is not.

To write that it is merely bickering to defend the fundamental doctrine of the Real Presence seems to me fundamentally in error.

The request to me not to write what I believe undermines the whole purpose of CE.

Is belief in the real presence just my personal opinion? Is it a concept which is true for me, but not for another? Does a contributor who says the opposite have an equally valid opinion, because that is his truth? Does Loretta hold that one does not have the right to say another is incorrect, since we are all correct if we say what is true for us?

Cardinal Newman was very astute in seeing the denial of the existence of truth as a basic modern problem. He called it liberalism.

Now the same fallacy occurs under various names, relativism or post-modernism being the most popular.

Thus Loretta, I am disappointed in your denial that truth exists.

***********************************************

Further Thoughts:

The Council of Trent said:

If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist that Christ is really, truly and substantially present let him go to hell (= let him be accursed = anathema sit).

Relativism is sometimes identified (usually by its critics) as the thesis that all points of view are equally valid...; in epistemology it implies that all beliefs, or belief systems, are equally true… They all deny that any standpoint is uniquely privileged over all others. (The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy http://www.iep.utm.edu/r/relativi.htm).

cognitive relativism (truth) - Cognitive relativism affirms that all truth is relative. This would mean that no system of truth is more valid than another one and that there is no objective standard of truth. http://www.carm.org/relativism/whatisrelativism.htm

 

ADORO te devote, latens Deitas, quae sub his figuris vere latitas: tibi se cor meum totum subiicit, quia te contemplans totum deficit.

HIDDEN God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils: all my heart subdues itself before Thee, since it all before Thee faints and fails.

 

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Feast of St Thomas, 3 July.

 

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Ever heard the song "open my eyes lord I want to see Jesus"?

I think you need to come outside the box and take in others views about Christ other than yours.  Then you might learn something.  When the world is brow beating you for quoting the CCC which only makes sense to Catholics, you might wake up and say hey I think I need to take a second look and see what's wrong.  When you come to this point it's liberating. No longer are you bound to your own ideas.  Letting go of your understanding.  Allow the Spirit of God to show you.  That's what I'm trying to say.  Because if the Spirit of God does not show you, you just repeat words verbatim that's not your own.  We are to repeat Christ, not some book.  Make life real is what you said.  From my point of view your running and hiding behind some wall.  I'm here and it seems I do not challenge you but make you balk.   Tell me your experience, it this way you sprout wings and take flight telling from your true soul.  

Secondly you missed my experience entirely, because you ideas of Christ and the Eucharist is still according to what someone else has told you and that someone else is human, and if they didn't tell you, you probably wouldn't go so far as to searching on your own, Asking the Holy Spirit to reveal all the truths in the Scriptures. That is His mission.

Christ is present Body Blood Soul and Divinity. The scripture verse that was included, told you of the Mystery.  It is mystical,  which you haven't experienced.  The Spirit.

Third you missed Ipoich's point entirely, she was trying to understand my point of view.  I simply showed her as well where I get my answers from and they come from experience after being enlightened by God, mixed with Faith and the Word.  The Word is three fold, Eucharist and written and Spirit, the latter when reading or praying or working or downtime, and before and after Holy Communion.  God is all things Spiritual, caring for the natural. Bounty.

If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Peace 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

Thank you for your reply.

You wrote:

Secondly you missed my experience entirely, because you ideas of Christ and the Eucharist is still according to what someone else has told you and that someone else is human,

If that is what you think my position is, we really have fundamental differences.

There does not seem very much point in discussing our disagreements. I say truth exists, you seem to deny this.

I wish you well in your searching.

However if your views represent the views of the majority of CE participants, I may be in the wrong place. I would like to hear the views of others about the vital issue I raised.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
Adam Stengel - Inactive

I actually did not see the original context of this discussion and based on bhokuto's post here it is not clear to me what exactly the position is that is being taken about the Eucharist.  The truth is that Christ/God/Holy Spirit is fully present in body and spirit in the Eucharist.  It is mystical that is certain, but that simply means that it is true but incomprehensible. 

 

The real problem I have with the post of bhokuto is the attack on the CCC and the much needed ability of Catholics to humbly accept teachings of the Church while struggling with their doubts about them.  "I believe Lord, but help my unbelief."  I find it sad these days that Catholics (or people in general) will accept at face value with no evidence anything and everything they read in school textbooks, but for a Catholic to do so from a book such as the CCC that has 2000 years of research put into it is considered foolish.  To have any progress in the Church we must humbly accept the conclusions that other people before us put their life's work into coming to.  If we are unable to do so we will simply rehash the same debates instead of moving forward and making real progress.  Progress requires building on what others before us have done and we do a large disservice to all of the saints and bishops, who carefully worded our faith as outlined in the CCC over the course of 2000 years, if we do not accept the majority of it as true instead of assuming I a single individual know better than the entire history and tradition of the Church.

      If however you want to debate something that is aleady a settled issue as far as Catholicism is concerned feel free.  But please do not ever attack the CCC as it is one of the greatest treasures a Catholic has, and furthermore is not difficult to understand if one really has a desire to understand it and accept it.

 

God Bless,

 

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

In the immortal words of Charlie Brown, Oh Good Grief.

Here is a summary (extremely summarized):

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------

NoelFitz wrote,

Bhokuto, You wrote: He(Jesus Christ) is present in the Mystical Way.

I disagree.  The Church teaches He is really present in the Blessed Eucharist.

Bhokuto responded,

Noelfitz all you seem to say is "I disagree" I guess this is the extent of what's inside you.

Then I responded trying to piece the two together (because from outside the two of you...at least to me...it was getting to be bickering.  My apologies for misinterpreting the nature of the back-and-forth.

At which point, NoelFitz, you were the one to write to me, "Isn’t it allowable for one to be incorrect if one means well?"

----------------------------------------------------------- 

But that WAS my point.  To me, it seemed as if you expected more exactness from Bhokuto.  To me, I understood what he was saying - and was trying to implore him to recognize that you were disagreeing with him BECAUSE of terminology.  He did mean well, and he did explain what he meant.  I was attempting to put your two perspectives together and apparently failed miserably.

And, to Bhokuto, I will agree with Adam that your attack on the CCC is certainly unnecessary and (in my opinion uncharitable, and proud).  You also wrote, "Make Christianity believable" rather than repeating verbatim from the CCC.  A "dull" thing to anyone who his seeking a spiritual meaning to life.

And I wholeheartedly disagree.  It was the CCC that drew me ever more close to my spiritual meaning of life.   Just because it doesn't do much for you does NOT mean that it has little value in making Christianity believable.

So here's my take.

Noel, if I have offended you in any way, I apologize.  I certainly did not mean to say you should not discuss.  I was pointing out that you two were basically in agreement - and that what you were bickering over was mere terminology.  If nothing else, look up the word "mystical" in the dictionary.  You may have a different understanding.

I am trying to not take offense that you accuse me of denying the real presence of Christ.  Please point out to me where I said that Christ does not truly exist in the Real Presence.  "Mystical" does not necessarily mean "not present".  I am trying not to take offense that you accuse me of denying that truth exists.

So here's my take on the Real Presence.

I uphold that which the Bride of Christ teaches regarding Holy Eucharist.  Christ is present, body, blood, soul, and divinity in a way that is really, truly, substantially present.

And because it is found in the CCC, if someone wants to accuse me of not feeling/believing the Truth - but only mimicing what someone taught me, then I suggest you keep your tongue tied.  You have no idea the hours of joy and understanding in prayer and contemplation those simple words of The Word have brought me.

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator
And I reiterate, look up the word "mystical" before you respond
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Adam

Thank you so much for your post. I am so encouraged to hear from you.

The position is worse than I thought. Bhokuto seems to deny me the right to hold that Christ is really present in the Eucharist, while Lpioch, seems to imply that to say Christ is present in the Eucharist and to say he is not are both equally valid.

Loretta (Lpioch) is a very sound and committed Catholic and I have always acknowledged that she knows more about the faith than I do. That is what has me particularly upset. I consider that Bhokuto does not fully appreciate what he writes.

I would like to hear from others in CE about (1) whether absolute truth exists or whether all views are equally valid, in that they express what is true for individuals and (2) whether Christ is really present in the Eucharist or not.

CE claims to be Catholic, but if the majority of us here deny the existence of absolute truth and/or the Real Presence then CE is not Catholic.

So, Adam, thank you so much for your clear support of the teaching of the Church and the CCC.

 

God bless,

 

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Noel,

I'm sorry, but I think you have either misread, or have not read everything.

Please, for my own reputation, show me where or how "while Lpioch, seems to imply that to say Christ is present in the Eucharist and to say he is not are both equally valid. " ?!?

Bhokuto has already, explicity stated  (and I quote from his post),

 

 

"  ---- begin quote from Bhokuto

God is a Spirit.

Jesus is present Body Blood Soul and Divinity. << ALL OF YOU DID SEE THIS IN MY POST, So you did not pay attention

He is present Mystically. Transubstantiation.

God is infinite, He is not limited by our minuscule, congenial interpretations.

"   --- end quote from Bhokuto

If he states explicitly that he believes Christ is present, Body, Blood Soul, and Divinity by means of Transubstantiation, THEY WHY DO YOU NOT BELIEVE HIM?

The only problem you could have with his above statement is "He is present 'Mystically'."

Although that is not the usual way of phrasing it, I don't know if anyone here would deny that The Real Presence is mystical (look up the meaning first).  It is just not the way *I personally* would have phrased it.

Now please, Noel, before you continue to libel me, HOW ON EARTH HAVE I EVEN IMPLIED THAT IT IS OK TO SAY BOTH THAT CHRIST IS PRESENT  AND IS NOT PRESENT ARE EQUALLY VALID?!?

Is it because of the word mystical?

Or have i completely missed something here?

Posted 1 year ago #
Adam Stengel - Inactive

  I think Lpioch was trying to simply diffuse an arguement that was not going anywhere as it was about word choice albeit word choice is important in describing the Real Presence.  The use of the word mystical is actually quite correct in describing the Real Presence as I pointed out that simply means that it is true but incredibly difficult to understand.  Now if the word mystical was used to somehow mean that it is a symbolic or simply spiritual presence than this would be incorrect.  However only bhokuto can say what was his meaning of the word. 

  Just a quick comment about CE.  Anything and everything that is put up on the site by CE is very truthfully Catholic.  It however cannot be held responisble for what people who post here may think.  In fact the fact that so many Catholics are confused on these issues is the very reason CE is so important. 

 

God Bless,

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Loretta

As you know I appreciate your grasp of the faith and that is why I am so upset with your views.

I asked the question:

“Isn’t it allowable for one to be incorrect if one means well?"

My answer is NO. Error is error.

You also wrote:

you were disagreeing with him BECAUSE of terminology.

No! I wrote because Bhokuto was denying the Real Presence. I say Christ is really present in the Eucharist and Bhogkuto says Christ is not really present in the Eucharist. Then you write that we are both saying the same thing. To me this is relativism. If Christ is present and not present in the Eucharist them truth does not exist.

You clearly show that the doctrine of the Real Presnce is true then you also agree with Bhokuto, who says the opposite. If you agree with Bhokuto, who denies the Real Presence, then you also deny the Real Presence.

The doctrine of the Real Presence is not only found in the CCC. It was held by Ignatius of Antioch in the early second century and has been the universal belief of Catholics since. Luther even admitted the Real Presence.

Loretta, I consider you one of the most faithful and deep thinking person in CE. That is why I find your views in this discussion so perturbing. I try to live up the motto “in necessary things unity,

 

Mystical (adj.)

1 relating to mystics or mysticism.

? having a spiritual symbolic or allegorical significance that transcends human understanding.

? relating to ancient religious mysteries or other occult rites.

2 inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Loretta

I think our posts are getting crossed. This is my reply to your most recent one.

As you know I consider you one of the most faithful and deep thinking persons in CE, That is why I am perturbed by the views I considered you were expressing..

I say Christ is really present in the Eucharist. Bhokuto says he is not. You then claim we are both saying the same thing. We are not. Christ either is or is not really present in the Eucharist, if truth exists.

If you agree with Bhokuto who denies the Real Presence, then it might seem that you also deny the Real Presence.

If you hold that my views and those of Bhokuto are both equally valid, then you seem to imply that to say Christ is present in the Eucharist and to say he is not are both equally valid.

Bhokuto wrote He is present Mystically. I say He is present Really. If Really = Mystically then we are saying the same thing. They do not.

You wrote Now please, Noel, before you continue to libel me_.

I do hope I have not libeled you, for legal and for charitable reasons.

Let me repeat, Loretta, that nothing I have written is meant to imply your lack of integrity, commitment, loyalty or faith.

Let me assure you of my deep respect for your knowledge and insights.

In the past you have encouraged and enlightened me through your posts, for which I am grateful.

 

God bless,

 

Noelfitz.

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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
AlvinaL - Inactive

During the past few weeks I’ve been concentrating on a good book “Lukewarmness: The Devil in Disguise” by Fr. Francis Carvajal. (An Opus Dei priest who also wrote the seven-volume series, In Conversation with Christ.)

He simplifies our topic:

Jesus Christ comes “in person” at Holy Communion “with his Body, his Blood, his Soul, his Divinity.”  It is the same Christ of Bethany, of Naim, of Nazareth-the son of Mary. (p.49)

Bhokuto, to say that Jesus is present in the Eucharist mystically, spiritually or symbolically leads to confusion and heresy.

May the peace of Christ be with all of you.

Posted 1 year ago #
Adam Stengel - Inactive

I still do not see why people are saying that mystical necesarrily means not real.  If I say something is "a mystery to me" it does not mean that it is false but that I just do not understand it.  If we have an "unsolved mystery" it means that it is something that happened just that we do not know how.  It is possible that bhokuto meant mystery in a symbolic sense, but that is not necessarily the meaning.  So before calling him a heretic maybe we should let him clear up the misunderstanding if there is one.

 

God Bless,

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Adam

Thank you so much for your post.

Bhokuto originally wrote:

So Christ is with us on earth in the Spiritual form, while in Heaven in His real form.

I naively thought that this meant that Bhokuto was saying that Christ is not present on earth in a real form.

I agree Bhokuto should clarify really and mystically his view on this mystery.

Mystery and mystical are different words.

However in future should I refer to the Mystical Presence rather than the Real presence?

It has been claimed that this petty bickering is about words, terminology. Words are important. They have meaning.

We should consider how important words are from that eminent statesman, lawyer and philosopher W. Jefferson Clinton "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is”. I would add it all depends on what the meaning of the word ‘real’ is.

I am really, mystically and mysteriously sorry for all the trouble I have caused.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

NoelFitz,

Bhokuto has written (as I quoted above) that he believes Christ is present, body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Holy Eucharist.  I see no reason to believe that he denies the REAL, true presence of Christ. 

Basically, my point is reverberated by Adam above.  Something that is "mystical" does not necessarily mean "not real".  I take, and agree, with the fact that The Real Presence is Mystical if you use the definition (from webster.com) 1 a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence <the mystical food of the sacrament>

So from my point of view, I agree that words are important (my post on the other thread).  Hence, I stated from the CCC the exact words formulated by the Church (showing you that YOUR words of "really present" were not complete either...you left out 2 words of the complete formula) because Christ is present really, truly, and substantially .  My reitterating this, in my opinion, should be sufficient for you to no longer claim that I am a relativist when it comes to this doctrine.  But you continue to do so. 

No where did I even remotely suggest that you should  start referring to the Eucharist as the Mystical Presence rather than the Real Presence.  But you have to agree, with the above definition, that the Real Presence is mystical or has a mystical aspect BECAUSE it has a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence .

I hope I have made my point and my position clear.  I do not intend to repeat myself for a 4th time.

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Loretta

Thank you for your post, where you have expressed clearly and forcefully your views.

I think it is time to terminate this discussion.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Nothing is useless.   Romans 8:28, 26-31 

Speak from the experience is my stance which I received from the holy scriptures and the CCC. Training. Move forward against the unnatural tide.  Living.

Thanks Ipoich and Adam you're understanding of my definition.

Noel,  AlvinaL,

In every person here in CE and those devoted, concerning this topic Eucharist, rests two views. Some may not have discovered it yet and others are on their way and still others have.  

One being that which we were told and believe through repeated use and have no other view or intelligent definition other than what is written.  Scriptures and CCC and word of mouth. 

The second being that of the Spiritual where you cannot describe the experience intelligently because it is Spiritually discerned and anything we come up with is less than par on the golf course. God is beyond us in intelligence and understanding, (He confounds the wisest, His grace is sufficient for us, His power is made known in our weakness) Mystical.

Man is both flesh and spirit.  

The flesh reads that Christ is present in Holy Communion.  The mind says where?

The spirit says there you are!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
AlvinaL - Inactive

Bhokuto,

I thank you for your kind response.  I apologize for not reading all the related previous posts.  In your post above you describe spirituality beautifully.  Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel recommends a prayer after receiving Holy Communion: “Body of Christ be my salvation.  Spirit of Christ be my sanctification.

It might be a shortened version of The Amina Christi prayer:

Soul of Christ, sanctify me
Body of Christ, save me
Blood of Christ, inebriate me
Water from Christ's side, wash me
Passion of Christ, strengthen me
O good Jesus, hear me
Within Thy wounds hide me
Suffer me not to be separated from Thee
From the malicious enemy defend me
In the hour of my death call me
And bid me come unto Thee
That I may praise Thee with Thy saints

and with Thy angels
Forever and ever
Amen

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

AlvianL,

God bless brother, I say that too after communion and during downtimes.

I like this as well: pray this for the ungodly.. say Jesus I pray for (name the person) at work or along the way of life.

 

Golden Arrow 

May the Most Holy, Most Sacred, Most Adorable, Most Mysterious and Unutterable name of God be always praised, blessed, loved, adored and glorified in heaven on earth and under the earth, by all the creatures of God, and by the Sacred Heart of our Lord Jesus Christ in the most Holy Sacrament of the altar.

This prayer was revealed by Jesus to a Carmelite Nun of Tours in 1843,

Imprimatur:  T.J. Toolen, Archbishop of Mobile-Birmingham 

 

Three primary positions of this prayer:

1 Praise to God the Father through the Sacred Heart

2 all creatures in the earth praise God

3 Eucharistic Heart of Jesus 

new one for me as of late "heaven on earth"  Every Mass is said to be Heaven on earth. 

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

I apologize if anyone took offense in saying that the CCC is dull.  And I do not think anyone here is dull.  Got a little hair raising affect.  I wonder if they've gotten any grayer?  Mine sure has.  

The path is still the same to heaven. it isn't getting any wider. 


 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
dado - Member

The flesh reads that Christ is present in Holy Communion.  The mind says where?

The spirit says there you are!  

Thanks Bhokuto, that brought back a memory, nearly forgotten, from early 2002. I had just returned to the Church after 30 years absence, and was attending Mass at a local Church. Now I was attending several parishes looking for one that I wanted to stay with and this particular Church doesn't have kneelers, the wafers sometimes are of an unusual consistency and color (probably whole wheat) the chalice seemed to be made of pottery, the Priest is sometimes treated disrespectfully, not that he seems to mind, and his homilies are often of the perfunctory, modern, cook book variety; well you get the picture.

I couldn't receive the Eucharist at the time and had just started reading the Bible and studying the faith. As I stood watching all the others go forward for Holy Communion, I heard a voice in my mind, not an audible voice or a even a seeming thought but words from outside myself "It is the Lord." And then I in agreement thought, It Is The Lord! I almost melted in tears. On reflection I questioned myself, was that phrase from scripture? It took me awhile to find Jn 21:7

That taught me a valuable lesson, that no matter what the obvious 

deficiencies of the  parish or Mass it is the Lord in the Eucharist.

If I am paying attention, I really don't have a disconnect between my mind and spirit when I see the Eucharistic host or wine. It is after all a gift of faith.

Dado

AMDG

Posted 1 year ago #
JosephMary - Moderator

Ave Maria!

Our Lord is sacramentally present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the most Blessed Sacrament.

MyGod, I believe, I adore, I trust and I love You; I ask pardon for all those who do not believe, do not adore, do not trust and do not love You.  (Fatima prayer)

 

Our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist and at the right hand of the Father in heaven where He intercedes for us.

My God, my God, I love You in the most Blessed Sacrament.

 

I accept the true teachings and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and of the CCC.

 

Posted 1 year ago #
Zachaeus - Member
So here is a question that I have: How long does the real presence remain in the substance of the host and in the substance of the wine after it is consumed? This was discussed before in the old round table but I can't remember what was concluded. (Yes, banging my head against the wall hasn’t proved very beneficial!!)
Posted 1 year ago #
royal osiodhachain - Inactive
Dear Noel, The reality for those who are in error is that if they realized that they were deceived, then they would believe in the truth. The difficulty in revealing the truth to any person is to first convince the person that they have been deceived. The deception of the disbelief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is the deception that sins do not need to be confessed because they do not exist or because they are inconsequential. In other words, belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is directly proportionate to real presence of the sinner in the confessional. Only in a state of grace can one come to believe in the true presence of Christ. As it is written in the catechism and also the back cover of the missalette, "Any Catholic conscious of grave sin is to abstain from Holy Communion until a full confession can be made." In the Holy Love of God I am your brother and my name is Royal.
Posted 1 year ago #
AlvinaL - Inactive
 Zach,

I remember the question from the old Roundtable.  I was amazed that the period of time for Real Presence in the consecrated bread and wine is short.  By the time we leave the church after the last blessing the Real Presence is no longer present in the bread and wine.  (Michael, come back and help us with this one.)  Sacramental grace-sanctifying grace-remains with us after receiving Holy Communion.

Zach, your new avatar is a stunning gladiator and a very good choice.

 
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member

Noel, et., those whom I've offended by being over zealous and belittling:

My perspective is not simply to say what Catholics already believe about the Eucharist and that being those who devote themselves to the feast.  My terminology changes from time to time because I also deal with other languages other than English and sometimes I have to use the most basic words in order to converse with those who do not know English whose common languages are other.  This can be a serious impediment because of translating internally to find the correct words.  I deal with three languages other than English.  So my brain may not pickup the words my spirit is relaying.  I apologize if you feel the misnomers of language issues.  This is unavoidable for me which is necessary in my life at the moment. Very tiring of the mind.

My walk with God has been over the entire world. I have traveled extensively only to find that people are the same anywhere.  The world over, experiences same issues in different avenues such as common to man.

I do not stay too long considering one level of any thing but take in and digest and sometime later it pops up in conversation.  I wasn't so lucky to have been born a Catholic, so I had to learn about the most important parts only to find other faiths denying cornerstones of what Catholics openly practice.  And to find those who claim to be Catholics to be less than par.  So I tend to have a less than normal outlook for present day Catholics, I see some as lacking many truths who have the whole Church of cataloged history rich in the faith.  I took to the races when I became Catholic because I saw the raceway clearly.  Where as before I was a Catholic I saw a dead end.

Two things that brought me to true faith:

Holy Spirit

Eat my flesh and drink my blood.  

I thought these two were the only things necessary.

I was amiss.  There is more to Catholicism than these two.

In conjunction with these two there is deeper meaning to God.

I find a great dialog John Chapter 17.

To believe in God the Father and Jesus Christ.  These are higher than anything else we believe. To know the Father through the Son.  We have so many ways to believe to come to this: one that comes to mind, Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph in the Presentation.  God gives us many "gifts" I call them this for the time being because as I get closer to God my words become few as my spirit needs no words to relate to God to release and in the presence of God who lives in my soul. So I have the intention and try to say very little but end up writing a book with scants here and there because I try to keep it short.  It is definitely easier to meditate on God and see and feel with my soul.  Speaking about faith as you grow in knowledge and in spirit takes up a lot of time when talking to others.  Because the end is not in sight.  The infinite God decided to keep us busy with things of religion so we don't run off elsewhere.

Over the past half year I've learned that in my soul is an altar where God comes to dwell. When I get bogged down I stop everything and meditate letting go of my issues.  I realized that teachings all lead to simple faith and that God dwells in my soul, if He does this for me, He does this for all souls.  Then I realized that my soul is the most important part of my being. Without a soul I could not commune with God. 

Then I understood through reading and listening to others who speak from their true soul, I gain more understanding of God.  I read the CCC and it represents Good. But there are things which you cannot write about. You have to experience it.  There is something that God imparts to each person that identifies an exclusive "this is for you" and no one else at the moment.  I find this to be true.  Not with standing that there are common things of Faith that we all identify with that is exclusive to the Body of Christ.   Then I find that to share in fellowship is also a necessary part in growth because the Holy Spirit dwells with each one of us. I realized that A body by design requires all parts to work "in" together.

Concerning the mysteries of God

God is spirit, so as I grew in knowledge of God, my spirit grew in God by reason of several things one being the Holy Spirit who I believe is my teacher, the Paraclete.  This is mystical to me because it cannot be explained away like some definition in the dictionary according to the natural world.  An element of Faith. Then I learned that I have faith.

But I will give my definition because I like to be able to identify what's happening in order to make sense. This is just to make some sense which is still beyond my intellectual comprehension.

God is spirit, he gave or imparted to me his spirit two ways and in two forms, first, directly from His being, I think it's His heart or bosom, which he breathed into the first man and second by the Holy Spirit which cannot be spotted but evidenced supernaturally --invisible. 

God is able to instruct through our spirits. If the intellect is not able to identify what it is, it is only good for that person.  I'll use A mirror effect. The mind or intellect is the part that speech is rendered and then dispersed out the mouth.  Thought brings forth Words at some point. Our spirits take what our thoughts and words have formed and bring it about.  I then realized that my spirit or soul is always in contact or conversing with my intellect, whether my flesh is in motion or not.  I have to choose to listen to my spirit because it leads to God whereas if I listen to my flesh it leads to earthly things.  Then I understood that sin keeps my spirit from from keeping God in my soul, (I'm still surveying this part) He leaves the altar or better yet He is cutoff from my altar which He made to dwell in; the flesh takes over and therein I return to the sinful man I was. Loss of Grace. 

God comes to us using Grace or grace which is many many things is like unto for me the transporter in Star Trek where if you stand on the pad you beam out or in.  So God is on a pad in Heaven and beams down to my soul when I'm in a state of Grace.  This is just graphic illustration on my part and nowhere near the exact. Illustration only.  Science can be useful for the imagination of how God works.  I've learned much from Scifi and translated it.  There are certain phenomenon that can be produced with technology for Good. This is where I mentioned about ET is good if it produces a spur to God. To give a more definite meaning to what I was searching for so I can understand God better. 

I recall a prayer regarding the soul: 

Hail Mary white lily of the always serene trinity.  .... etc. etc. effuse our souls with effusions of Divine Grace.  Hail Full of Grace!  

Therein I get the soul is a traveler or sojourner in this world to find God and make Him happy. This concept although you say it is exclusively Protestant theory, they still are brothers in Christ. It is not entirely incorrect as they do not use the terminology you may be looking for to identify if someone is Catholic. If we Catholics do not understand them, they will never understand us.  The apparent errors are both ways because they see us in error and in heresy and we see them the same way.  We both are in error for not putting aside or coming to terms with each others terminology and listening with our true souls wherein we fellowship.

To say to our fellow man because you do not speak the same words we speak is like saying because, you wear rags for clothes you cannot enter. This is universal.  God will judge each of us according to how we treat one another. 

I am guilty of doing just that, a bad vice which I picked up from having worldliness. Never the less I endeavor to get rid of the poison which vice instills. The antidote to Satan's poison I've learned is the Eucharist.

So to be Catholic to many here means to say the right buzz words.  This makes you all exclusively innate and inept to reach a world who speaks a completely different language who love vice rather than virtue.   We have to adapt in order to win the world for Christ.  Only the Church in it's true form can testify of Christ.  I do not criticize to bring down, I bring from my observation what I noticed.  

Noel, especially goes out of his way to post his grievances and says, we have to defend the faith.  God needs no defense, neither does Christ as they are Almighty, The Creators of our Lives and Universe. Which we forget. The Church is under His Control and not under ours.  We are His Body not ours. Our Faith is a Gift. It does not belong to us, we are privileged to be made and created.  Not the other way around. God does not need us we need Him. He can always say ah, I've had enough. I'm going to create something else.  He has the right.  This is not a negative statement, this is a statement that says God is all powerful.  

Peace. 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted 1 year ago #
lwall - Inactive
bhokuto: I am a latecomer to reading your posts here and elsewhere on this CE site including the discussions about your appropriateness at CE. I would just like to say that I respect your deep soul searching. This does not mean I am sympathetic with all your comments. But now,I may be mistaken,  it seems to me that one of your main difficulties with Catholicism concerns with Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist. If so, inform me. There are some considerations I might proffer. By the way, I do agree with you in your above comments saying that we as Catholics must learn the language and meanings of those outside the Church if we are effectively to evangelize and to forge a wider solidarity with those unlike us. But I must take note of your reference to Catholic language as "buzz words" only which signals that you may not understand that certain special locutions of the Church are a product of the Churches primordial and continued encounter with God Himself, thus certain words and concepts substantially participate and are informed by His actual presence within our finite ontology. Much of Catholic terms and concepts are not "buzz words" nor equivalent to nor reducible to the languge of other faiths and beliefs which you may have encountered across the world. They are sui generis, utterly unique, just as the Incarnation is utterly unique. Because of the Incarnation we made caopable of  "seeing " outside our limited finite ontology, a seeing Kant hinted at but ultimately rejected, a seeing Kierkegaard knew very well but refused to accord it any linguistic expression, and a type of seeing  emphatically denied by all postmodernists. This lifting up of our minds and our of our neural synaptic networks by God Himself in and through Christ is remarkable! We now can see, albeit dimly, that which as former prisoners in Plato's cave, we were prohibited from seeing by our finite tunnel vision. And like the prisoner returning to the cave after seeing the Forms, we Christians too may appear crazy and out of balance to others around us. I invite you to consider that the human mind needs the Incarnation and its continuous mystyerious presence as Eucharist in order for us to see, in order to escape the cave. God's power can truly qualify and effect a substantial chnage in our spirits and minds. Does this resonate at any level with you?  May God Himself come to you in a new and powerful way. Thanks.
Posted 1 year ago #
DonHudzinski - Member

bhokuto,

Please consider this article, and comment upon it.

 

It appears to me that every Feast of the Lamb of God (Mass) is an Annunciation.

 

Comparison of Annunciation to the Mass

By Donald F Hudzinski

The Annunciation                                                                The Mass

Luke 26-38

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent                                 The priest sent from God

from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,

to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,                                         to his congregation.

of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.

And coming to her, he said,                                                                    Priest says,

"Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."                                                    “The Lord is with you”.

But she was greatly troubled at what was said

and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.

Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid,                                     Priest says,

Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Behold, you will conceive in your womb                                                     “Behold, the Lamb of God”.

and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

He will be great and will be called

Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will

give him the throne of David his father,

and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever,

and of his kingdom there will be no end."                                         Congregation says,

But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be,                                             “How can this be, it is only

since I have no relations with a man?"                                                         Bread and Wine”.

And the angel said to her in reply,                                                         Priest say,

"The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the                                             “Come Holy Spirit upon these

power of the Most High will overshadow you.                                                 Gifts of bread and wine”.

Therefore the child to be born will be called

holy, the Son of God.

Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the                                 The Congregation sings,

Lord. May it be done to me according to your                                             “The Great Amen”.

word." Then the angel departed from her.

Posted 1 year ago #
lwall - Inactive
Yes! Here is precisely where we live, move, and have our being- we loive only in being imbued with Mystery, His substantial  presence within and among us, bringing to birth Chrits in us. It is not a matter of rational understanding. It is a matter of faith which as the greaet theologian of the 20th C. Paul Tillich urges, is a fundamentally ac matter of being-grasped by that which is infinitely greater than me. Being and continuing to be fecundated by Him.
Posted 1 year ago #
Adam Stengel - Inactive

   First of all, Iwall I like reading your thoughts on the Real Presence much more than thoughts on atheism.  Just kidding, I enjoy reading all of your posts and, I see the general thread of the reality that the beauty of the Church lies in its mysteries not in its rationality.

 

    On another note there was a question raised as to how long the Real Presence is present in the consecrated hosts and wine.  I think the answer given was not clear.  The Real Presence in the consecrated host and wine is present until consumed.  This is why any left over must be consumed either by the priest, deacon, or EM or reserved in the tabernacle for the next mass.  The Real Presence that is relatively short is after the host or wine is consumed how long the Real Presence is within the body.  I am not sure if it is at the end of mass or not, but the exact time frame is not important.  It is however important to remember that any consecrated host remains the full and real Presence of Jesus until it is consumed and therefore should be treated with due respect.

 

God Bless,

Posted 1 year ago #

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