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Abortion-question

(33 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by FaithFalcon
  • Latest reply from FaithFalcon

1 2
FaithFalcon - Inactive

Hi!

I'm writing an argument paper on abortion. I'm arguing against this point- "Well, since the fetus is not actually a human being, it's alright to kill it."

My question is- is the fetus actually a human being?

 

Thanks for you help!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

FaithFalcon,

A fetus, meaning, an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth, has all the potential to be born a human and zero potential to be born anything else.

In your query you italicize being. By doing such are you inquiring if the fetus has a soul. Or possibly you seek to know what a being is since we know that a fetus which we discuss is human?

When we search the word being it returns the following choices: : the quality or state of having existence b (1): something conceivable as existing (2): something that actually exists (3): the totality of existing things c: conscious existence : life: the qualities that constitute an existent thing : essence; especially : personality: a living thing; especially : person.

I believe the fetus meets all the requirements listed above.

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member

Congrats to you FaithFalcon for taking a stand against abortion.  This is a very difficult task in today's society. 

You asked if it was a human being.  It is a living being at moment/instant of conception inside a human being.  Yes it is a human being.

 

Ask yourself this.  When was the last time you heard an expectant mother refer to the child she is carrying inside of her as a fetus?

 

Tarheel

Posted 1 year ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

1.  All living things have a unique identification code in each living cell, called the DNA.  The DNA of a human being is unique from any other plant, animal, or other living thing.

2.  Individual living things develop, but they do not change the identity of what they are. The DNA of each individual human being does not change; it is identical from the time of being a zygote in her mother's fallopian tube, to the time of being a little girl swinging on the playground, to the time of being a grown-up woman grading students' papers, until the time of being an old woman on oxygen in the old folks home. 

3.  The law is widely accepted making it illegal to destroy a sea turtle egg and a bald eagle egg. While they are not yet sea turtles or bald eagles that we would recognize, they are sea turtles and bald eagles nonetheless.

4.  Words mean things. The word fetus means "little one" in Latin. If it is not a little human being, than what else could it possibly be a "little one" of?

5.  We must not kill when we are not sure. If we are not 100% convinced whether that noise in the bushes is a bear or a person, to kill would not be the correct thing to do precisely because we are not sure. If we are not certain, we ought to err on the side of living, not killing. 

That's just a start, but I hope that helps.

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

The bottom, rational explanation is this:

 

Like begets like.

 

When's the last time you saw a tree reproduce something that was not a tree...or the last time you saw a dog reproduce something that was not a dog?  The same for human beings.  When we reproduce, we reproduce human beings.  Nothing else.

Posted 1 year ago #
Winslow - Inactive
As alluded to above, a human fetus is not broccoli.  It's not a trout.  Since it exists, it's definitely a being from the instant of its conception.  Since it's a product of human origin, it cannot be anything but a human being.  There's no way around that.  Some will insist there is, even though they know there isn't.  They lie.
Posted 1 year ago #
work in progress - Inactive

Yes, that "blob of tissue" as some refer to the newly formed human being, is human. It is also living, hence the question, "is it all right to kill it?" (you can't kill something that is not living). Living + human -- is there any other human it is all right to kill?

 

"The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
The human being is an creation of God Almighty, Father Son Holy Spirit.

Anyone who kills one of these is staring God in the face.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

It is more often used in the embryonic stem cell research debate, but another point of argument is this:

Once we accept denying a human being in a certain set of circumstances is not really a human person and therefore it is okay to kill them, we open a door.  History is a showcase of examples of what happens when we follow such reasoning and step through that door -- black slavery, concentration camps, ethnic cleansing, forced sterilization of certain groups, euthanasia. These are evil actions which all used the same line of thinking as this abortion argument -- namely that human beings of this particular type are not really human beings.

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . An 'embryo', a 'fetus' - are merely points in development that will lead to 'infant', 'toddler', 'child', 'adolescent', (all too likely) 'adult' and then that puerile ancien, *"ME"*. At no point in time was I essentially different from the unique human I am. Each of us from our Father are 'I am' all along. As PTR notes - make one stage 'expendable' and all stages can then be expendable to someone. Remember, I love you, too . In our delighted glory in our Infant King, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
FaithFalcon - Inactive

Thanks so much everyone! You all helped a lot with my paperLaughing

 

God bless!  

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

de nada - any chance you are an Albertus Magnus Falcon?

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
FaithFalcon - Inactive

DVG-

Nope, I'm not an Albertus Magnus Falcon. This is actually my brother's account I'm using, and he really likes falconsWink

Posted 12 months ago #
MREINER16 - Member

I think one important point that has not been made, is that even in science, it is recognized that man is body and soul (or consciouness or inner being-you can fill in the word here). By framing the argument purely on biology I think a big point is being missed. Human beings are not just a body like animals. We have an immortal soul that connects with our body at the moment of conception. When that body dies, the soul still lives-the essence and being of we humans is that soul. Therfore, how does anyone have the right to kill the body made in the image and likeness of it's Creator?

Posted 11 months ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

MREINER16,

Although you bring up a point in that there is a consciousness inherent in all humans, it is a point of contention. Whereas we Catholics believe this consciousness is the immortal soul, science does not subscribe to this theological premise.

Also, as has been discussed in these fora, animals do have spirit within, it is just not immortal.

In Christ,

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me...

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 11 months ago #
jofa - Member

I'm just doing a copy/paste from the other abortion string:

Excerpt from:

Editorial, A New Ethic for Medicine and Society, 113 CAL. MED. 67,67-68 (September 1970) 

 So this is copied from above mentioned California Medical Society's Journal in 1970 (two years before Roe v. Wade)

" It will become necessary and acceptable to place relative rather than absolute values on such things as human lives, the use of scarce resources and the various elements which are to make up the quality of life or of living which is to be sought.  This is quite distinctly at variance with the Judeo-Christian ethic and carries serious philosophical, social, economic and political implications for Western society and perhaps for world society.

The process of eroding the old ethic and substituting the new has already begun.  It may be seen most clearly in changing attitudes toward human abortion.  In defiance of the long held Western ethic of intrinsic and equal value for every human life regardless of its stage, condition or status, abortion is becoming accepted by society as moral, right and even necessary.  It is worth noting that this shift in public attitude has affected the churches, the laws and public policy rather than the reverse.  Since the old ethic has not yet been fully displaced it has been necessary to separate the idea of abortion from the idea of killing, which continues to be socially abhorrent.  The result has been a curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous whether intra- or extra-uterine until death. The very considerable semantic gymnastics which are required to rationalize abortion as anything but taking a human life would be ludicrous if they were not often put forth under socially impeccable auspices."

Posted 11 months ago #
bhokuto - Member
Did you all have a chance to watch March for Life on EWTN?

it was quite impressive. Yet I am skeptical about it, because they are still fighting against a system that is "non-loving."  It has teeth and bites away.  Chomp.

Peace 
Posted 11 months ago #
FaithFalcon - Inactive

bhokuto-

 

I went on the March. This year, there were over half a million people there-broke records. It was great! 

Posted 11 months ago #
Winslow - Inactive

Outstanding, FF.  How did the paper come out?

 

Peace

Posted 11 months ago #
FaithFalcon - Inactive
The paper came out really well, Winslow! My teacher really enjoyed it. I couldn't have done it without everyone's help! thanks!
Posted 11 months ago #
Winslow - Inactive

We aim to please.  Congratulations.

 

Peace

Posted 11 months ago #
bhokuto - Member
FF,

Good for you on the March!

The witness is to those who see it.

Peace
Posted 11 months ago #
ladybug - Inactive
Ladybug
Posted 11 months ago #
ladybug - Inactive

There is so many layers to this debate -- spiritual, biolgocial, sociological and anthropological.

Everyone here has strong feelings about the spiritual argument, no doubt.

Biologically...do you own your body?  Scratch that, it brings you squarely back to the spriritual argument.  LOL.  But, for the sake of secular argument, let's assume that you have ownership of your body.  Does that include eggs or sperm (DNA copyrights)?  What about sperm or eggs that have genetically combined with another to form a completely seperate being that's not even 50/50 but some unpredictable, cross-over mix, meaning this newly created being is not even expressed 50/50.  How do you determine who has genetic dominance and greater ownership?  If your DNA has combined and has genetically crossed-over (mixed) with anothers is it still yours...or theirs?  Do you still own the copyrights?  Or have your copyrights ended and collided with anothers? 

Sociologically--When a majority of a society believes that the value of each individual life is relative (contigent upon convenience, health and ability to be exploited to the benefit of others (embryonic stem cell research)) it will imbue your entire socioeconomic system...which is has...from the bottom up to the top.  We're living this relativism every day.  Not everyone matters, least of all the mentally imperfect and dependent.  It's reflected in all our social and health systems.  You can't build a culture that cares without first giving absolute value to each life, but includes the support that we, as a community, give each mother and child beyond birth.  It doesn't end with overturning Roe vs. Wade.  It's only the first step towards building a culture that truly values every life.

Then there is the whole anthropolgocial side which I don't know much about.   How does abortion impact a culture that practices it long term?  There have been many cultures that practiced abortion (Japan pops into my mind for some reason).  If the culture is split by the belief in abortion (as in the US) then how will that effect the numbers of both sides.  Is it self-genocide that limits it's own belief and growth?

God has given us laws to protect each individual and ensure the health and growth a population which lives by his laws.  Regardless of man's laws, if we, as Catholics, continue to follow God's laws we will flourish and draw strength regardless of man's laws.

Ladybug

 

Oops.  Didn't realize you already submitted your paper.  That's what happens with kids constantly pulling on your legs and vying for attention. LOL.

Posted 11 months ago #
FaithFalcon - Inactive
That's okay, ladybug! I always want to read about the issue. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question! 
Posted 10 months ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive
FaithFalcon, The fetus is human if the parents are human although some humans behave inhumanly. A fetus is alive at the moment of conception and the soul is infused by God himself. As it is written in the Scriptures, "Before you came to be, I knew you" which translated to american means that God gave human life a soul from the moment of conception and God knew that soul and will know that soul for all Eternity. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen
Posted 10 months ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Very pertinent to this question/discussion is what Pope Benedict had to say today:

Pope Reflects on Man's Urge for Immortality

Especially:

Human life always has innated dignity-- even for someone in a coma or an unborn child in utero-- the Pope said. However, someone who thinks of his own life only in the biological sense "does not realize and develop all the potential of his being," he said.

Posted 10 months ago #
Winslow - Inactive

<<How does abortion impact a culture that practices it long term?>>>

 

Excellent question.  How about the wealthy get fabulously wealthy and the poor become hopelessly destitute?  How about the country that hosts that culture spends 70% of its wealth on weapons while exporting its manufacturing jobs to cheap labor overseas?  How about the children of that culture are having sex at 12 years of age?  How about the culture becomes viciously anti-religion?

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture.

Peace

Posted 10 months ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

Winslow,

How do you figure 70% of America's wealth goes to weapons?

The GDP of the USA for 2006 was $13.13 trillion.  The Department of Defense appropriation was $658 billion. The DoD includes weapons, but also clothing, pay, new construction, travel expenses, medical, retirement, maintenance.

Was that hyperbole, or are you really that misinformed?

Posted 10 months ago #
Ray II - Inactive

Here is a link to an excellent scientific answer to when does a human being become a human being.

 

http://www.californiaprolife.org/abortion/whendoes.html

 

 

Posted 10 months ago #

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