Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life

Death and Resurrection

(43 posts)

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lpioch - Moderator

God is concerned about the person.  That means body and soul.  You cannot say God is only concerned with our souls.  Our bodies (matter) is not fully corrupted by original sin.  Our whole person is marred by original sin.  It is not only the body that sins, but also the soul that chooses to prefer self over God.  This is the stain of original sin.

I think it is safe to say that matter will also now be eternal.  The form or shape that the matter takes (tree, fingernail, ocean, etc) may change until the end time, but we know that our bodies will rise again, too. 

I can see where you are trying to go with this, but our souls must also die.  Our souls must die to themselves so that Christ can make them now.  St. Paul does not talk about the "old flesh" or "old body" but the "old man" which is a person...made of both body and soul.  We must put away the old man.  The old man must die (both body and soul) so that Christ can bring about the new man who is identified with Christ the man.  Of course, none of this is possible without God's grace and the eternal sacrifice of the newborn King.

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Lpioch

As I have said before I am just an ordinary Catholic with no particular deep knowledge of the faith, but I am interested in the early Church. I do admire your deep insights. You wear your learning very lightly. 

In a few simple sentences you have summarized the Catholic position, without going into the details of the hylomorphic theory.  Your post reflects a knowledge of the insights of Socrates, Aristotle, Aquinas and the philosophy taught  by Catholics over the centuries.  You show your deep scientific and philosophical background in an apparently simple post. 

As one whose Catholicism is suspect and who has been deeply hurt here, I do not want to add to anyone else’s hurt. However at times the views expressed here seem to me to echo Manichaeism and a strange type of Gnosticism.   

Prior to his conversion, I believe, St Augustine believed in a kind of Manichaeistic dualism, with two entities the flesh (evil) and the spirit (good).

Manicheanism taught that the world was dominated by two co-eternal and opposed principles, one benevolent (Ormuzd: light), and one malevolent (Ahriman: darkness). These two "realities" were responsible for bringing eternal strife and conflict to the world. http://www.augustinefellowship.org/augustinefellowship/resource/00000010.shtml?main 

The Gnostics believed that knowledge was granted to special people who had insight.  These people did not need study, learning, education or teachers.  They did not need the authority of anyone.  They had direct spiritual enlightenment.

 Gnosticism (from Greek gn?sis(??????), knowledge) refers to a diverse, syncretistic religious movement consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect spirit, the demiurge, who is frequently identified with the Abrahamic God... In order to free oneself from the inferior material world, one needs gnosis, or esoteric spiritual knowledge available only to a learned elite  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism 

These views of types of Gnosticism and Manichaeism did not die out.  Perhaps they are with some people still. 

I hesitate to mention these here, as I do not  really want to be involved with controversies and arguments.  However the mentioning of them may be helpful. 

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Thank you, noelfitz, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.

For the two heresies you listed above, and for so many others, we should all once again (and daily) thank our Heavenly Father for the Church.  We cannot simply read the Bible and understand with our own minds what really is the Mind of God.  We will never fully understand it, but we can grow closer and closer through the guidance of His Body, the Church.

We may also glimmer insights that may not have been specifically spoken of through Church teachings.  But we can (and must!) "test" these glimmers according to the lights afforded us by the Church.

By the way, Noelfitz, upon your recommendation, I have been reading Kreeft's Introduction to Prayer (or what the title is exactly, I cannot recall).  I read a few pages each night, and each night I am thankful to you for your recommendation.  We are always learning and improving, as long as we allow God to speak to us through his means.

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Loretta

many thanks for your post.

I am always encouaraged by your posts and those of many others here.

For the next year I would like to think that my posts would be positive and help others rather than negative and confrontational.

Kreeft's writings are like your posts, in apparently simple language he has very profound deep insights.

My spiritual director recommended his book to me.

Peter Kreeft is a Catholic apologist, professor of philosophy at Boston College and The King's College, and author of over 45 books including Fundamentals of the Faith, Everything you Ever Wanted to Know about Heaven, and Back to Virtue. Some consider him the best Catholic philosopher currently residing in the United States. His ideas draw heavily from religious and philosophical tradition, especially Thomas Aquinas, Socrates, G. K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis. Kreeft has writings on Socratic logic, the sea, Jesus Christ, the Summa Theologica, angels, Blaise Pascal, and Heaven, as well as his work on the Problem of Evil, for which he was interviewed by Lee Strobel in his bestseller, The Case for Faith.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kreeft)

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
Benedict16 - Inactive
The Saints are incorruptible.  500 years and their bodies do not decay.
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Hi BXVI

I have been looking over your posts here. I note you have been here for about a week.  You are very welcome.  I hope you find us a friendly and supportive group, and not too argumentative. I am afraid that at times I am.

I am praying for your fiance and hope all will be well.

The description of your visit to Rome was inspriring.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
It is your soul God is concerned with,  Matter is simple.

A soul does not die, cannot die, it is cutoff from Grace.  

Original sin.  What is it?

Sin. What is it?

From the earth is your body created,  the Earth is not eternal thus the flesh is not.

From God comes the soul.  God is Eternal thus your soul is too.

Genesis  2:7a,b

7a: And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth:  [ the fleshy part ]

7b: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.  [ God is in heaven ]  

The confusion is simple, some folks read here and there and conclude that life comes from
the flesh.  Does the faith say our life is in the flesh? Our faith is in Spirit. For God is Spirit.
For life comes from the Spirit.  All things were created by a Spirit.  God gave to man a soul
so he can have life.  


Jesus said everyone born of a woman must Die.  Jesus died on the Cross.
Apostles died some were beheaded, some died the sameway as Jesus.
It seems because you are still living and live in a materialistic world of fingernails
and such that matter is more important.  It is not.  Jesus said if you are to follow me
you must deny yourself take up your cross and follow me.  Does this say, with your fingernails
polished? come follow Me?  Does this say the flesh is to live in spite of the spirit?

1 Cor 2
9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God. 13 Which things also we speak: not in the learned words of human wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.

God can cause matter to remain as is.  Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven.

Some of the saints bodies were kept as they are for witness to the unbelieving.  Not for your amusement.

John 6:64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Do you deny St. Peters words? St. Paul? Jesus from John?

These are just a few.  I can drum up more for your reference.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Peace





Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Matthew 10

28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. 2 For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit.6 For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. 7 Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8 And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification.11 And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
Section One
"I Believe"—"We Believe"

CHAPTER ONE
MAN'S CAPACITY FOR GOD


33
The human person: With his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material,"9 can have its origin only in God.

37
In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13


Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
1697
Catechesis has to reveal in all clarity the joy and the demands of the way of Christ.22 Catechesis for the "newness of life"23 in him should be:

a catechesis of the Holy Spirit, the interior Master of life according to Christ, a gentle guest and friend who inspires, guides, corrects, and strengthens this life;

a catechesis of grace, for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life;

a catechesis of the beatitudes, for the way of Christ is summed up in the beatitudes, the only path that leads to the eternal beatitude for which the human heart longs;

a catechesis of sin and forgiveness, for unless man acknowledges that he is a sinner he cannot know the truth about himself, which is a condition for acting justly; and without the offer of forgiveness he would not be able to bear this truth;

a catechesis of the human virtues which causes one to grasp the beauty and attraction of right dispositions towards goodness;

a catechesis of the Christian virtues of faith, hope, and charity, generously inspired by the example of the saints;

a catechesis of the twofold commandment of charity set forth in the Decalogue;

an ecclesial catechesis, for it is through the manifold exchanges of "spiritual goods" in the "communion of saints" that Christian life can grow, develop, and be communicated.


Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . I will maintain to my own day of 'going through Jesus to Jesus' that, as the 'soil' of Adam and Eve was just as much of matter that once was not-matter, there in essence is only one thing any of us - and even a blade of grass - is made of. You are nothing of nothing - I am nothing - every single thing, atomic sub-particle strings to Universe, are of God's love. If Love did not want us to love, He would not have made a stitch of matter. And, that matter is right from Him, out of His love. You and I are made of nothing but God's love. And, still as at beginning and never to end, really, does He love His creation - especially us, who are uniquely in His image, and uniquely both matter and spirit, natural and supernatural. And, all of it, made of His love. Remember, I love you, too . In our delighted glory in our Infant King, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
From the CCC

Original sin - an essential truth of the faith

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to "convict the world concerning sin",262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
From the CCC

How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265



Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
From the CCC

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground",285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
From the CCC

Concentrate on 403 and contemplate it. Italicized  This is where I got the inspiration.

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292


Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Believe me when I tell you, I had no idea what a soul was.
Than as I began to cross reference scripture to CCC and other books written by certain Christians, I realized that a soul is from God from His very own Person.  Not from any where else.
Not from the earth.  Not from the stars, or universe, not from the sun or moon.  As you can see I searched allover.  Only when I listened to the Spirit was this revelation given.  So when I read the scriptures I am enlightened not as one with no understanding, but as one who came to Fountain to be less thirsty, because the Spirit has opened up the vast infinite, the true mysteries which is in God.  Because I sought to know the Truth.  God inspired this desire.
My aim is to show you what I've learned.  To not share is a sin.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Now the death of the soul means this, since it is eternal it becomes dormant not alive, lively, active.  Death warmed over.

Death for the flesh is ceasing to exist in it's created state, thus an infant grows into an elderly person who returns to dust. The soul moves on invisible to the naked eye.  

A soul is indestructible and cannot be extinguished as in cease to exist, disappear from before God into nothingness.  Where as the flesh returns to dust and is trampled on, or becomes tossed in the wind if not burried.  Ashes to ashes dust to dust so says the priest at ones funeral.

A soul was willed by God and His will, will never cease.  If God ceases to exist then and only then will the soul cease.   Souls who rejected Christ will live in eternal torment. Souls who accepted Christ will live in eternal bliss.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Noel,

Even though these folks concluded thus, they were incomplete. And by this I mean they stopped there and did not go forward
making head to gain more wisdom. So they would return to proper adherence
of the True Gospel.  And only God can truly know what they were thinking.  Even though their works made manifest in the world.  God still is looking at their hearts.

So to complete it, we continue to march forward.

The truth is still truth no matter how you look at it.  Because in the scriptures, sin is evil and the flesh is the bringer of such evil.
Also God concluded in Genesis that man imagined vain things and did evil all his days bringing about the flood.  So there is merit in what those folks actually concluded to.  They just did not go any further to realize that through the Sacraments one can become perfect.  So your points are well taken but not taken well.  :)   I do watch my own faults
and take them to confession when I have understood fully what my fault is then I ask God before hand to help me rid of it.  Grace of Reconcilliation is not just for rattling off some fault, but for to trust in God to help overcome, remove, if He is gracious about it, I must be sincere in my desire to have it removed.  Otherwise I will commit the same fault over and over.  And this becomes redundant to a new fault.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Jesus said unless we die we cannot be reborn.

I have a come to a point where this is not exactly thoroughly proved but it poped in while I was meditating, rather grew over time from studying.

Once a person dies, the physical body returns to dust.  while the bones take more time to decay than the fleshy part.

I find this rather interesting:

Adam and Eve: there bodies were created from the earth.
Everyone after that was born of woman.  Not from the earth anymore though the origin is of the earth.

God cleansed the earth with a flood during noahs time.

Thus Jesus says we must die to be reborn.  (In short)  that's what is concluded.

The soul lives forever.
The flesh dies.  On the Last Day God will cause all matter to rise again.
All flesh must die, everyone born of a woman must die.

Now the catch phrase is "born of a woman"  Not born of God.  What is born of God
is the soul.  The soul cannot die the death of the flesh.  So why does God say in Genesis
on the day you eat of this fruit you shall surely die?  He meant, man to die twice, the flesh
and the soul.  The flesh in that it will die as in return to dust, cease to exist.  For the soul
dead to God as in cutoff from Grace the source of Life to keep it holy, pure, sancitified, joyful,
lively, so forth virtues.  So God is Life,  Christ came to give back that Life which was lost to the soul.  

Lets take a look at Angels.  When Lucifer went to God and said "I will not serve"  God said
chow buddy!  Sent kicked him out and Lucifer became Satan.  From Grace to not sure what the correct word is. but Loss of Grace the Life!  Joy, Holiness, Purity which is God and in God
LIFE! Light Love.  Satan is now ugly full of hate, no light, impure, unholy, not sanctified.
Two sides of the coin.  Light and Darkness, life and the antilife.  Good and Evil.  Make sense?

I thought this out.  

It's rather a long shot.  But makes alot of sense.

Since our souls are the ones God is concerned with, the flesh being merely matter,
but corrupted by concupiscence, once the fleshly matter returns to dust it no longer
may not have the concupiscence, dies with it.  So when is risen again with a pure soul it is given its intended sinless state, or returns to the time before it new sin or was poisoned.  Purely hypothetical at the moment but makes sense in the scheme of things of cleansing sin out completely.  The flesh is the easiest part to cleanse.  The soul however is not because it cannot die. It needs grace to heal it.  

A seed is sown into the earth.  When it has been nourished by sunshine and water it grows.
Then when it has reached its fullness it is harvested.  
A seed has outer and inner layers.  A man has an outer layer called flesh and an inner layer called soul.  When it has been nourished by sunshine and water it grows.  And when it has come to fullness it is harvested.  The soul is harvested.  The outer layer is merely dressing.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Any retractions?

I have a few

One, I used to think body and soul were one as in "solid."  
Where we read in the CCC

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

Two,  the soul must die, this is incorrect as St. Paul wrote,  we must put to death the deeds of the flesh through the spirit.  Cuttoff any sinful desires that have come about in the soul.  Thus confession gives us grace to help our souls become cleansed.

The flesh must die as Jesus not only died for our sins, but also signified "death to
the flesh" in order for the spirit to become ruler of the body.  To be raised on the Last Day. The soul lay dormant in many people.  The flesh has to be over turned
put to proper use rather than being the dominant one.

CCC says:
363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.


So to conclude:  it is a union of spirit and matter.  Where the Church teaches that spirit and matter are one in nature and not two natures.

The details in the scripture relate to man as one nature but with two distinct origins.
So lets distinguish these two origins and work on them one by one.  As the CCC also points this out.  Two distinct origins.  Not to be confused with One Nature, a union.

To be a complete man whole, pure, holy as in Gods ideals for man, man has to die to self cuting off the concupiscence refraining from allowing sin to overtake.

But, at the sametime the CCC has to be read in it's entire context not negating any thing that is written but to build upon one stone at a time.  I think though it is rather useful in certain points where in other points, it is trying to reach at something we can
only grasp in the spirit.  To conclude the CCC must be read in light of scripture. One has to have a good grasp on the spiritual in order not to humanize it's real purpose.



Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto 

Thank you for your detailed posts and deep reflections. 

I hope that 2008 will be a good year for all of us here in this round-table and our families and friends. 

I would like to reply to your posts, but not in a spirit of confrontation or argument.  I want to tease out and clarify your thoughts and mine. As you know I am interested in the early Church, but do not have a deep background in the faith, so I might be wrong in what I say.  Thus I would appreciate your input and that of others. 

I am not too sure what you are saying.  Do you advocate a dualism, with good spirit/soul and bad flesh/body?  If so I have problems with this. 

I believe that Plato, the neo-Platonists and Augustine before his conversion considered that the spirit was good and matter/flesh was evil.  Perhaps these ideas were taken up in the Rerformation by Calvinists. But Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas and the Catholic Church did not see flesh as evil.  After the fall of our first parents our passions incline us to evil, but the human person is not inherently bad. 

At Christmas we think of Handel’s Messiah, and its use of Scripture: 

“I know that my Redeemer liveth and in my flesh I will see my God.” 

Everything God makes is good.  

God Himself even became a man.  

 “The word was made flesh and dwelt among us”.

 

The incarnation means God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, took flesh as a man. That was good.

 

He said that he that eats my flesh and drinks my blood will have live everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

The NRSV has

then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground,? and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.

 You have: 

7a: And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth:  [ the fleshy part ] 7b: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.  [ God is in heaven ] . 

What translation did you use? 

The two translations differ fundamentally.

You quote:

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. 

This clearly shows that soul and body may end up in hell.  

After the last day our bodies will rise.  How this will be so I do not know.

Pope John Paul II in his theology of the body shows that the body/flesh is not evil.

You quote the CCC

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

If you accept this, we both agree.  In man (woman), the human person, body and soul, flesh and spirit, form and matter are united. 

Flesh is used in the Bible in different ways.  It can mean our bodies or (as in Paul to a great extent) our corruptible part. 

Here are a few quotes showing  flesh in a positive way in the Bible:

Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called Woman,? for out of Man? this one was taken.” (NRSV, Gen 2:23).

 You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. You have granted me life and steadfast love, and your care has preserved my spirit (NRSV, Job 10:11,12).      

My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord, and all flesh will bless his holy name forever and ever (NRSV, Ps 145:21).

 

Did not one God make her?? Both flesh and spirit are his.? And what does the one God? desire? Godly offspring. So look to yourselves, and do not let anyone be faithless to the wife of his youth (NRSV, Mal 2:15).

 

and all flesh shall see the salvation of God (NRSV Lk 3:6).

 

Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. (NRSV Lk 24:39).

 

And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son,? full of grace and truth  (NRSV,  John 1:14).

 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh (NRSV John  6:51). 

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them (NRSV, John 6:56).

 

 to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah,?  who is over all, God blessed forever.? Amen (NRSV, Rom 9:5).  

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Noel,

In your good spirit, Praise the Lord!  I hope in Christ for your steady climb to the highest heights, that is to be a bright as the sun.

I use the Douay Rhiems bible.  I used to use the King Jimmy, Paraphrased-Living Bible, American Standard, and some other brand name study bible.  I would like to get the perfect translation but that seems impossible at this time.  Without all the thee's an thou's.  

for douay rhiems online Catholic Bible
http://www.drbo.org/index.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/

Yes that's problem with Translations concerning versions, that is why I wish for the perfect translation.

I'm just on the road to learning as you do.  But I've noticed many of people don't read the bible, because they think it to be "Protestant".  How silly.  The Bible is from the Catholic side of the fence and is for Christians no matter what sect you belong to.  It is the Word of God in written form but is alive through the Spirit.  Which if you read Johns Gospel tells us this.  "Paraclete will help you to remember My Words", teach you and guide you, instruct, reprove, so forth.  And also in 1 John he repeats this in a different way using his interpretation.  

I don't know concerning other historians or philosophers:  I personally after reading,
these two verses below felt compelled, inspired, locked on to the Holy Spirit as teacher and so forth, which todays Catholic Christians think it "Protestant".  How silly.  Again the Bible came from the Catholic side of the fence.

John 14
16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, do I give unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid.


1 John
20 But you have the unction from the Holy One, and know all things.
27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.

As far as evil soul flesh, this is what I believe read Romans chapter 7.

A person if they succumb to the knowledge of evil can become evil giving over to the chains of slavery to sin, but becoming more than just a sinner, he can become a demon.
Is this too hard to swallow?  Not really, it took me sometime to really accept this.
Just as Lucifer who was an Angel of God standing before Gods throne became Satan and  the Head Demon, Man can become a demon, not by possesion but by yielding to Vice.
This is called transformation.  So to think that a man cannot become a demon to me is naive in thinking.  Whereas before I did not think it possible without becoming possessed.   The more I studied the Bible the more I concluded thus and realized, that
through certain verses in certain books of the bible a man with the knowledge and seeds of evil can become purely evil.  The Book of Genesis is the proof.


Genesis 6:

3 And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

5 And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times, 6 It repented him that he had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart,

Now this is back then, but these words are echoed to today.  To remind us of our history as men and women.  Where we came from, what God did for us when we ignored Him, we ignored His verbal commands.  "Do not eat that fruit".

It so happens that God does dwell with men who are in Christ.  

God was hurt in my own words I say this.  Because when someone did evil to me to the point of betrayl, I felt sorrow of heart.  Yet God cannot feel like we do.  I wonder God who is perfect, can be overcome by wretchedness of mans actions?  No.  Yet His children whom He created are running amuck what can He do?  Everything.  He choose to provide for us a way out of this evil.  You cannot deny evil, in the day you do you loose sight of our history and become naive.  Have to know the difference between good and evil and that anyone can become evil.  Because it simply exists in this world and Satan is the one who instigated evil into the world.  We gave up our dominion to Satan, as is written in the CCC.  Now Christ came to destroy the work of Satans evil grip.

To conclude,  Everything I posted above should help you to understand my position, for I do not speak of things outside this without first saying so.  My desire is to Know, Serve and finally Love the Only Wise, True God, Through Jesus Christ, Who is the Father of us all.  The Holy Spirit is Alive and Well today and will be forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end.

What is world in the above?  Is it this world? Or some other? Or is it referring to the general word as world?  such as Our worlds. Or you crushed my world as in sphere an area within which we live?

Also in the CCC they use the Douay Rhiems when referring to Genesis 2:7

Ever wonder why angels exist?  I mean apart from the known understanding?

They exist because we are to be like them.  They live in Gods presence.  They are endowed with certain knowledge instantly. We however take time to gain knowledge to where it is embedded, assimilated into our being.   Jesus eludes to this in the Gospels.  One day I was down and out. I said to myself I cannot do this(as in go to heaven via proper). Then I heard my angel say come up! Come Up! We are here! Come Up!  I didn't understand this at the time because I was sulking in self pity.  Now I understand what this means.

Peace

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Noel, Ipioch,

With the below statement from the CCC I ask you to reason this:  

"With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated."

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to "convict the world concerning sin",262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

Herein lies something of greater depth.  Just as in progress of technology we see greater ways of which one can become more promiscuious.  
In the same way or line of thinking borrowing from this and assimilating the thought pattern, "Progress" reveals more in both good and evil.  So the more we see good the more we see evil.

Another words as we walk closer to God and see His glory of what we are allowed to 
see which is Pure Good, when we return to reality of this current life we can't help but
notice that evil has ramped up.   The two go "hand in hand".  Why?  Because our adversary the Devil, puts up his anti like the poker chips. There is always a calm before the storm.  Thus we read in the Book of Revelations, "Satan has but a short time" to do his best to destroying the Church, Gods work and of His creation upon the earth.

In the early Church, Satan was one angry hombre', because Christ defeated him at the Cross.  So, Satan went about to destroy Gods work the Church.  Persecutions, heresies,
all that stuff.  Then Satan kind of stepped back to observe and wait for his turn again, but all the while he would still instigate always attacking the Church needlessly.  He still is at work attacking the Church anyway he can.  Now he didn't just go all out constantly torturing and killing, he did it in intervals, planting seeds here and there, the subplanter.  Cunning and crafty, he's not like the good folks who have honor and respect.  Virtuous people need protection because they are good.  Vice laid people do not care about rules, honor, respect, indulgence is a big thing.  Thus you will know them by their fruit.

As we see clearly God, we see with disgust the evil in this world.  The deeper your relationship with God the deeper your realization of both good and evil.  You see it for what it really is.  And it makes it easier to walk away from evil.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

thank you for your long reply to me.

I appreciate the thought you put into it and its non-confrontational form.

While both of us try our best to me good Catholics it seems we disagree on two point.

1.  You claim flesh is evil, I say it is not.

2. You claim we should not study, knowledge comes directly from God. I disagree

In a discussion, to make a point, one is often inclined to over-emphasize.  Thus I would not like you to believe that I do not think that in prayer God may speak to a person and thet Paul uses flesh, at times, to mean the corruptible part of a human person.

As no one else seems to be concerned with the issues I raise, they may not be so important. However I would like to hear from other participants who might have views.

So once more, thank you for your post.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Noel,

1.  I do not make the claim.  It is written.  God said so.  It is written in ink

2.  I do not claim, we should not study, You do.
What is reading?  Is it for to not study?  Are you still an infant that you cannot comprehend
what is written and have enough understanding and intelligence not to hear what God is teaching you through reading?  You do not give credit to
Gods created intellect in a person.  Thus you say to God you made dummies.  It is when you do not rely on the God given process to learn
that you do not learn and it doesnt' matter who teaches you.

I merely pointed out to what the scripture says,  You will be taught by the Holy Spirit.  Guided by, GOD the Third Person.

Peace




Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Noel,

I posted above in one of the posts about what the CCC says about making a connection with the sin of Adam.  Basically what it is saying is to study this connection.  So you understand what Sin is.  Sin is evil according to God.  We have to accept this or we cannot accept the rest of the Gospel.
It says the reverse side of the Gospel.

Now Jesus said and not only Jesus but also in Genesis,  Jesus merely added more detail in this statement: from the heart comes fornications, murders, thefts, = evil.  

Romans 8 says if we walk according to the flesh we follow it's inclinations which is evil.  We read that Christ came to condemn sin in the flesh.  So what does this say?  bottom line, Sin is Evil.  Who sinned from the beginning murdering Gods children?  Lucifer.  Lucifer killed the soul.  He enticed both Adam and Eve.  He destroyed the unity of the true man.  This is evil.  Man infused evil as knowledge and went to learn all it can do.  Just as wisdom can teach a man how good he can do, wisdom also teaches how evil man can be.

St. Paul wrote:

Romans 7:15 For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

St. Paul consented to stoning Stephen the first martyr.
John the Baptist was beheaded, Jesus was crucified, a man shot and killed 5 or 6 people in Las Vegas.  Is this evil? or sin?  It's both.
Sin is evil.

Peace


Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

Bhokuto

Thank you for your clear reply to me.  I appreciate that we are grappling sincerely with questions that have troubled me for a long time.

To my first question you now clearly state that you believe that flesh is evil.

Concerning the second question, I have raised this topic of higher education for Catholics a number of times. I gather from your answer that you really are not against study, learning education and intellect.

As I  have said previously, perhaps our differences are not as great as in the past I felt them to be. 

Perhaps both of us agree with the motto of St Thomas Aquinas  "Prayer and Study and Work".

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
bhokuto - Member
Noel,

Sometimes it is best to not know evil.  Because evil taints and distorts.
But to have the realization that it exists is enough.  

Lucifer did the evil deed.  Now Christ came to remove that evil deed through a process of time and free will.  we have to want to rid of it.
it exists, there's no two ways about it.  
Genesis says tree of Good and Evil.  And not Good and Bad.  We have to accept this fact.  Or it will not make any sense along the path of life.  While you are doing good, all of sudden the door breaks, the car stops running, the battery dies in the middle of the road.  The occasion to scream and curse are always there.  We are constantly at a cross-roads.

Peace
Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

B

Thank you for this post.

You write: Lucifer did the evil deed.

To what evil deed are you referring?

I really do not understand your post.

 

In fact Genesis says:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Ge 2:17 (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989).

God bless,


NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #

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Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge