David,

same books, all 5.

authors name is Maria Valtorta, she passed away some years back and was a sister in some order in Italy.

Peace

Poem of the ManGod

www.valtorta.org

you can go to  www.drb.org and scroll down to see it "Valtorta Publishing".

Peace

Thanks but, this has been an ongoing battle for the folks.


Here are links for your amusement as well as arguements for the simple who like to believe that everything is kosher(not the pickle)

The Thread Did Mary give her approval to reading the book: This thread has many insighful words:

http://www.medjugorje-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5593&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

From a Bishop in Italy:

http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/DnlkEWTN.htm

http://www.heartofjesus.ca/sitemap.htm


Michael and David,  this deserves more and it's not as simple as what is written by Fr, Mitch.  There is a long history and one of much scrutiny which you have to decide for yourself.  As with all decrees we have to discern individually.  That we are given free will to choose what is truth and what is false.  This particular ongoing issue long has more following it than against it.  Either you are a clone or you are able to freely think and decide.

Also Michael you read some book or are still reading which the author wrote against the Faith on certain instances and you posted your argument, .  Why did you read it?

Deconstucting Catholicism thread

your first paragraph:

I finished Catholicism by Richard McBrien this past week and was wondering if anyone else has read this book. While I found the book “scholarly” to be sure, I can’t say that I found it particularly “Catholic.”

This book is out of line yet no one has condemned it.  

Read the threads above on the links to why these Books are more popular as they recieve more criticism.  If they were not the work of God it would have been terminated long ago.

Peace

Bhokuto: When I read Catholicism I discovered that it appears to diverge from the Church's official teaching and finished reading it with that in mind. I have not recommended it as a work which all should read, nor have I tried to convince others that it's erroneous (by my reading) arguments are true. Unless you began Ms. Valtorta's voluminous opus prior to its condemnation and addition to the Index, I don't think you can say the same. In fact, you seem to laud the work on these fora. The fact that the Index is no longer extant does not imply that those works which were on it at the time of its demise have somehow been redeemed in Catholic thought. All of the works should be considered suspect and read in that light. Our free will does not allow us to choose what is true and what is false. Our intellect or faith (or, in a very few cases, revelation) allow us to discern Truth - a part of which means that we, recognizing that the Church is the Voice of God on Earth, conform our wills to Her instruction; the former Index is a part of that instruction. Our free will then allows us to act or not based on that knowledge - choosing either good or bad. And your argument that their "popularity" is a sign of their inspiration is rather specious. If that were the case, the Bhagavad Gita, Tao Te Ching, or even Dianetics would fit into the "inspired" category. None of your references above are an official, magisterial Church source and represent opinion. Fr. Mitch, at least, has the Index to reference regarding the dubious nature of "Poem." In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

David,

Radio Maria is popular in Italy and they promote the teachings of Christ written in these fine books. Pope's have not condemned them(Radio Maria).  The Vatican listens to Radio Maria.  The people love it.  Because they are encouraged by the words the teachings of Christ.

There are plenty of links at the first link I provided which if you take the time to review them at the medjugorje forum which takes about a few hours and some.  When you have actually read the books you will
find that what they(in the text you provided) repeat is non-sense.  They haven't read it.  They just passed on what some cardinal picked out and used against the entire 10,000 pages. It so happens that cardinal was covering up many things, kind of reminds me of Judas the one who betrayed Christ.  The Cardinal is a successor to one of the lesser apostles.  Maybe this cardinal was subplanted?  When we read up
on his legacy, we find that he also condemned Sr. Fautinas private revelation which has later overturned by another pope.  

The problem with these books according to the Vatican is that they consume more pages than the actual pages in the bible.  So this would be a significant addition to the New Testament.  Imagine carrying around  10,000 page bible divided into 10 books, 1000 pages each.
Pretty heavey and it ain't even my brother.  :)

Plus www.drb.org also, promotes her website.  So we do have quite a challenge.

In the case of St. Joan of Arc, the Church at that time was divided and ruled by heretics.  She was later exonerated and made a saint.  So God is truly the judge and overseer of those who follow the Spirit no matter what.  

I'm not sure if you are familiar with prophecies concerning the latter Church as in "these days".  There are many that repeat what has been said about and Evil Pope, apostacy, schisms, and so forth.  So it is very good idea to follow what the Holy Spirit leads one to.  In cases such as this you have to "pray" and "ask".  First off you have to have sound faith, trust and deep devotion to God through Mary, Rosary, Angelus, Immaculate Heart, Immaculate Conception. She leads us to Jesus.

I start my day Rosary, Divine Mercy, and then dive into Pieta Prayer Book, read the scriptures at least 10 chapters a day,
meditate, contemplate on what the Holy Spirit is wanting me to focus on. Every now and then read certain sections of the CCC to see what the Popes have concluded.

Heresy is really a thing that goes against what the Christ teaches.  What Christ teaches?  Yes, the Church only repeats His Words, and if the Church adds to His Words and changes His words, than the Church has stepped into Heresy.  This is an example, because this did happen back in the day.  So, it behooves one to examine and be patient not to condemn something of it's members as St. Paul writes about in Corinthians.  That is to be well rounded.  The Holy Spirit is the one who guides, teaches, counsels, and so forth through those who are Faithful to God.  

When I started reading book One of this tremendously insightful book, I was floored because I have read the scriptures thoroughly, I can testify
to 99% of what's written to be 100% genuine.  As there is a margin of error when translating anything from one language to another.  This is human intervention and cannot be avoided cross platform.  Over time if the error is too noticable than someone should correct it by taking a poll with good counsel.

Personally I think this book is incredible, it has filled in the gaps of certain scripture that left me questioning the end result.  Pretty straight froward.  If something is not of God it leads to the wrong path.
If something is of God it leads to true faith.  This book leads one to true faith in God.  Too many people who have read it say the same repeating over and over.  So it is of God to me.  I do not negate what the popes says either, he only repeats what some cardinal condemned.  And the time these folks were too intellectualy based, as in the mind is greater than the spirit. Face value, not looking at the Origin and the Spirit of the matter.  If you examine something you can see the origin whether of God or of Satan.  These two.  The scriptures make this point I just made clear.  In fact very clear.  

For instance I have some issues with SSPX and than I have issues with those who oppose SSPX,  this is my statement.  There is definitely cause on both sides to be alarmed at one another, But both are wrong in that they condemn one another.  This is Satan's work.  A house divided cannot stand.  Thus the Church has become one big play ground for Satan.  How insightful this book is to point out how to correct this serious problem.  In short without taking up 4 pages, that is to Repent on both sides and reconcile the differences and return to true devotion.

Because it can side track one who's trying walk.  It has done so.  After
being swayed here and there, I got sick of the non-sense and said ah! these two are really pissing me off!  I want solace and focus and had to put blinders on so I don't hear the hissing of one onry Serpent in both of both them.  I found that, to Trust in God is the best, because people do not know what's best for them.  They get caught up in the trivial matters which become the point of focus cluttering up the soul
and causing irritations.  No peace, no calm.

The SSPX is really Old Faithful who Shun Modernism.  They who Oppose them want to Change the Church teachings to "fit the times"  Sounds like. I do not join either group nor condone either.  But I am one who stands by Christ no matter what.  I realized the gravity of modernism and at the sametime I realized that adaptation is a necessary evil "sort of speaking" to reach these Techno inundated society people who are like in one giant ocean of swirling to nowhere but hell.

The Holy Mother says, "those who go to hell, made the choice to go there"  So, with that said, we can resume our much anticipated
glory called "Heaven" the quest to reach it and live forever.
As the whole focus of Christ is to lead mankind back to God to avoid
Hell.  When the Church bickers over this and that, someone is hard
at work trying to divide and well he certainly has done a bang up job
so far.

And By the way David, you're much into Christ so do not let anything throw you off course.  Let nothing trouble you, be fixed on Him in your mind and in your Heart.  

Jesus said My words will never pass away. Heaven and earth will but My words shall not.  This means to me, even if heaven and earth were to disappear, He His Words won't.  Which also says even if all of mankind were destroyed "He will still exist" with the Angels in Heaven.  Man would be abayo, adios, auf schinzelzein.  This begs the question would all of man be suffering in Hell?  Probably.

Wisdom: will all thy heart get wisdom.  Never let it depart from you.

Peace

A link from a visionary of Medjugorje, you decide, that's if you believe in this sort of thing.

http://www.mariavaltortawebring.com/Pages/014_Confidential.htm

Both Popes have endorsed Medjugorje, but have not approved it. So this says something.  So I say as Jesus said to the Pharisee's "Let My work speak for itself" The Miracles themselves testified.  But they would not believe.  

The time alotted for proof according to the Vatican is 10 years.  Medjugorje has been on the books for over 20 years.  What's wrong with this picture? Fatima was approved.  Medjugorje is by some a continuation of Fatima.  But all are from God so it is God continuing His
mission to open the eyes of the unbelieving.  To thwart Satan's work of
negating that God exists in our current time.  As we see that the current society in the world confess with the mouth God but with the heart they serve and are slaves to sin.  This called "coaching".  The material world is more important to them.  They are truly caught in a gambit.

Peace

 

Bhokuto

 

You wrote:

 

 It so happens that cardinal was covering up many things, kind of reminds me of Judas the one who betrayed Christ. 

And 

In the case of St. Joan of Arc, the Church at that time was divided and ruled by heretics.   

And  

There are many that repeat what has been said about and Evil Pope, apostacy, schisms, and so forth.  So it is very good idea to follow what the Holy Spirit leads one to. 

One of my resolutions this year was to try to be more charitable.

Thus, could I please ask you, in charity,  to give us more details about “that cardinal” and the rulers of the Church who were heretics. I would also like to learn more about Evil Pope, apostacy. 

We have had a detailed and courteous discussion about our two views, summarised with “Bhokuto – flesh bad, education bad; Noelitz – flesh good, education good”.  We have also discussed Gnosticism, where knowledge comes not from study, education, authorities but directly from the spirit.  I think this is another example of your  consistent view that knowledge does not come from learning and  the teaching Church but directly from what the Holy Spirit leads one to.

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Winslow,

Quite true, I think your view is more general, were as my view is specific.

With the heretical comes anger, and a wrong attitude, and the spirit behind is purely evil.  Know how to distinguish evil and good fruit. Because the days are evil as St. Paul has written, these are actually prophetic words.  

Within the Church there seems people do not understand the difference between holy office and Pope's teachings.  When the pope teaches he is infallible as long as he teaches Truth.  Case in point when the seat of Peter was hijacked by a power hungry man, it was ugly.  The Vatican had to wait years to live this down.  And it still haunts many.

Again here is mysticsim,  Holy See, Holy Office, Holy this and that.  Too much.  Not simple anymore.  Too much.  It seems they branched out like a pagan democratic organization.  Christ said follow Me!  Not the Vatican.  The pope is there I submit to his authority, I do not submit to corruption within the Holy Office.  Thus you should use discernment and that is why Christ gave to us the Paraclete to be able to tell the difference between a lie and the truth.  When a lie comes out of the Vatican, namely someone who is not the pope and says for so and so I write this order, I read it carefully and ask in what "spirit was this written?"  Reason being corruption wreaks every where man is in power.
No man can truly be perfect in position of power unless he denies all that is flesh, carnal.  And you should already know this.

Peace

B: "Christ said follow Me! Not the Vatican. The pope is there I submit to his authority, I do not submit to corruption within the Holy Office." Christ also said, "...upon this rock I will build My Church." While ex cathedra statements of faith and morals can only come from the Pope, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium may also teach infallibly when:

"...[Bishops] even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held." - Lumen Gentium 25 [emphasis mine]

Fidelity to the Church is more than fidelity to the pope alone, but to all that the Church has to teach. To what "corruption" within the "Holy Office" do you refuse submission? In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"
- GK Chesterton "The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - also GKC