Lead us not into temptation « Catholic Exchange Forums

wljewell - Member

God loves you . Isn’t that a curious expression to find in the very one prayer that Jesus Christ most directly left to us? “Our Father . . . Lead us not into temptation”. Tracing that interpretation of ancient documents probably has us back at the formation of the Vulgate. Saint Jerome was just irascible enough to think: “Yes - YES! He’d give us that utterly proving test! Put temptation in front of us – verily lead us to it – to see just how faithful we are!” You are forgiven if you can imagine a cackle almost of delight at the idea. However, some modern translators and such are now arguing that it does not seem ‘Fatherly’ for our God to ‘lead us into temptation’. Hence, there has to be some clarifying re-translation. They want to opt for something like one of these: “Grant that we are not led into temptation.” But – why not? His Son was more or less led into the desert to have Satan put on some very direct moves, eh? “Abandon us not to temptation.” This, of course, presupposes that our Father, our Abba most loving, can ever abandon us, except to our sins if we so persistently choose. And, how about – “Guide us away from temptation.” This has Him getting into the way of our free will – sort of screening us off from part of His image in us that we are screened from occasions of sin, perforce. Hmmm – any thoughts, pilgrims? Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)

Posted 1 year ago #

David T Garrison - Inactive

Lead, and I will follow. Lead me not, and I will follow you there as well. When we are lead into this temptaion, we take with us the might of Christ if we so desire. Grant me the grace to ward off the temptation to sin.

Jesus, you are the most perfect Guide; lead, and I will follow, by the grace of God.

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #

wljewell - Member

God loves you . But, David - - do we have necessity of begging God to not be the very One Who leads us into temptations? And, as He is the steadfastly loving God we adore - - just WHY would He lead us into temptation, that we now need to beg Him to cease and desist from doing so? Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)

Posted 1 year ago #

michaelme - Member

Pristinus: I've always been a bit ambivalent about the line "lead us not into temptation." On the one hand God does not "lead" (I don't think He does anyway) us but "allows" us to face temptation. On the other hand I've not liked most of the alternatives I've heard either, for essentially the same reasons you outline (since I'm using both hands, perhaps that makes me "ambidextrous" instead of "ambivalent.") I always liked "put us not to the test" or some variation of that. This is "fatherly" as I test my kids all of the time. They may ask me not to and I may decide that they aren't ready for something yet, but I'll still reserve the right to give them "trials" to help them grow. In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #

on a journey - Inactive

if we are to be like Him, we must face temptation and through His grace, be delivered, by choice, from said temptation.....

"Lead us not..." says to me that I do not trust myself to face temptation so MY choice would be to skip it altogether....

but now we are back to BEING LIKE HIM.....how are we to be like Him if we never face temptation?....

so we beg, still knowing, that we MUST face temptation and thus "deliver us from evil" as we know only He can......

is this circular? I'm not sure I make any sense in this but it sorta makes sense in my little pea brain.........

Happy Thanksgiving, Warren.

Jesus, I trust in You!

Posted 1 year ago #

David T Garrison - Inactive

Warren,

Everything in the fullness of the Word is the best way I can describe my understanding.

Good teacher, tell us how we are to pray. Do not go out in public, but in the privacy of your room speak unto God, and this is what you shall say.

These words alone were unheard of, that we might beckon unto God and call Him, Father.

The first request leads to a second, but deliver us from [every] evil. So, to understand "lead us not", may be to say, spare us the trials and tribulations of this world, but do not, in your mercy, forget to deliver us from this evil that we have brought upon ourselves. Everything happens for a reason whether we understand it or not. God places people, places and events in our life for our benefit although we do not always see this clearly. Jesus instructs us to ask the Father not to lead us where we may fail in our resolve, but if we do, deliver us from the evil we have brought upon by our weakness.

In the hail to our Queen, similar words are invoked. ...to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us...that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #

michaelme - Member

The Latin Pater Noster uses the word inducas which we translate as "lead." But inducas can also mean "bring" or "introduce." If the Biblical text is inspired, as we believe it to be, then we can't really change the word inducas to mean "abandon" or any of the above attempted re-phrasings of the text. "Lead" in the sense of "introduce" then may yield the proper sense of the phrase. We pray that God not introduce us to temptation but that, should He, He give us the grace to persevere (deliver us from evil). Interestingly, the NAB's version of Matthew 6 on the USCCB's site uses the phrasing "do not subject us to the final test" in place of "lead us not into temptation", and "evil one" in place of "evil." As the official English text of the Bible, is this translation preserved from error? In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #

dado - Member

"And lead us not into temptation" we have just prayed to our Father and King who's name is Holy, that under His Kingship that His will be done, by us as loving children here on earth, perfectly as in Heaven "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48) and to give us both our physical and spiritual 'Bread' and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. These lines show our proper dependence in all things as children of a loving Father but yet only as we cooperate, with free will in our Fathers plan.

Then we say, 'and lead us not into temptation'. Was not the first temptation to supplant God's plan with our own that we might 'become like God'?(Gen 3) The tempter accused God of lying saying eat of the forbidden fruit 'you shall not die', but now the fruit we are commanded to eat, our Bread of life "is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."(Jn 6:33)

As the Our Father is a prayer with the proper subject throughout being God so might not the verse be read 'and (God will) lead us not into temptation' in repudiation of the lie of the evil one? And further might we read it as, 'but (God will) deliver us from evil' to enforce that Adam should have trusted in God and we should be as trusting as chidren. Of course it requires that we remain in a state of grace, no removal of personal responsibility here. The prayer is that of the 'those who do the will of the father' the brothers, sisters and mothers (Mt 12:50) of the new Adam(1Cor14:45), the new people of God (Rev 21).

And more to the point of the post. I think certain verses are challenging for a purpose. It seems that the some have the idea that the translations purpose is to make it (falsley) "accessible". Jesus spoke in parables requiring the openess of children to believe and trust in his words in ligh of the teaching of those who he would send. Scripture requires prayer and reflection in light of the teaching of his Church, if the phrases are reduced only to the best rendition in english might that lead many to perhaps a simple, monotonic understanding?

Thanks Warren your post led me to the above reflection.

Dado

AMDG

Posted 1 year ago #

michaelme - Member

Dado: I like what you've written and think it a pious supposition. I believe, like you, that God is Him to Whom the prayer is addressed but I don't think that the imposition of the simple future tense (will) in conjunction with God is how the sentence is to be read. The prayer seems to express a sense of supplication rather than confidence. If we place God as an (understood) part of the sentences in the prayer we get something like: (God) give us this day our daily bread, and (God) forgive us our trespasses....And (God) lead us not into temptation but (God) deliver us from evil. I honestly would like to think it reads: (God will) give us this day our daily bread, and (God will) forgive us our trespasses....And (God will) lead us not into temptation but (God will) deliver us from evil. I just don't see any evidence of that in the various translations in the English or in the Vulgate, which would have used inducero (I think) to express "God will." All that aside, I am going to look at the prayer differently, now, and try to use it to increase my confidence that His Will is best for my life; that "all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well." Something of which I seem to require constant reminding. Thanks, Dado. In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton

Posted 1 year ago #

yanastrovich - Inactive

wljewell, The Prefect for the Doctrine of the Faith is assigned the duty to maintain the integrity of all things Catholic. I am certain that you may rest assured the "Our Father" or "Patre Noster" will never change it genuflection for the entirety of the church on earth. A parish in my home state tried to change the Trinitarian Salutation to "In the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifyer" then had to re-baptise all the children that were improperly baptized.

Insofar as my take on the phrase, "lead us not into temptation", I am convinced that God the Father knows full well what is the intention of the prayer. I am satisfied that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Master of all prayers and so would not teach us a worthless prayer.In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen

Posted 1 year ago #

bhokuto - Member

How about,

this prayer:

Our Father who is in Heaven, May Your name be held Holy, May Your Kingdom come to earth as it is in Heaven, May Your Will be done in earth as it is in Heaven, Give to us today our Daily Bread, and Forgive us of our debts as we forgive those who are in debt to us, Lead us not to the Test, but save us from evil. Amen.

I read somewhere that this prayer is for all, a universal prayer. For instance, the phrase "Give to us Today our Daily Bread" refers to Gods Bounty to feed His children on earth. Since all humans have souls and the soul is created in Heaven while the embryo is forming in the womb, we are all Gods children regardless if we have accepted the Redemption package. When anyone recites this prayer to the Father, they pray for all of Gods children throughout the entire earth.

Also, to be able to say this prayer is a gift from God. It's the first prayer taught to the first Christians by Christ who prayed it first.

Peace

Posted 1 year ago #

wljewell - Member

God loves you . What a delightful set of comments. We have the sense, really, that God knows that we must be tested because we will encounter tests without His more forceful (gracious) cooperation. He would test us not simply to underline our faith, but to give it backbone for every test. As 'yoke and burden', we find that God will test even with temptations, that temptations become something 'less burdensome' toward sin. And, on a journey, and all of you and any who take a look here - a most blessed Thanksgiving - a secular reminder of our beginning, soon, a new Church year that I would pray be abundant with gifts for your next Thanksgiving. Put Christ in your Advent, and He will be 'born' - a first-gift! - into your Christmas. All hail our loving God, Who gives us His Son, and even mighty tests to show off His prodigies - US. Let us never let Him down, siblings in and of Christ. Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)

Posted 1 year ago #

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