Baptists typically do not Baptize infants. Catholics and other protestants do. If a infant or child were to die, prior to declaring themselves to being saved and obtaining that personal relationship to Christ, would their salvation be secured? Seems like folks, who can't make this declaration of faith before the age of reason, would be in big trouble...hence baptism, the being saved by water and spirit.

Regarding Catalina22's question about infants.  I have not answered yet but hope too soon as it is one of those issues that gets to the center fo our debate.  I will be the first to state clearly that there is no easy to the question for Baptists.   

We are all born into original sin and Baptism washes away original sin.  Therefore to wait until adulthood or the age of reason would be to carry the baggage original sin to adulthood.

In the new covenant baptism replaces the circumcism of the old covenant Jewish law.  Infants were circumcised and through their circumcision they became children in the family of God.  Baptism accomplishes the same in the new covenant.  Children are baptized as infants, freed of original sin, and become children in the family of God.  Baptism is the entrance sacrament of the Catholic Church.  Parents have a responsibility and make an oath, during their childrens baptisms to form their children and raise them and provide a christian home and foundation for them. Parents have the resposibility to bring the children up in the faith.

Catholics also baptize adults who are unbaptized and have gone through proper formation through the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) to be received into the full communion of the Catholic Church during the Easter Vigil.

Joseph,

I, too, am banned from the kitchen.

I would like to quickly respond to a couple things before it is time to eat.

You reference being baptized as a child and being "freed of original sin" but this cuts to the core of the faith issue we have been addressing.  I have often wondered if this is why (from what I observe) that Catholics often do not do a better job of putting their faith into practice.  It is like they are already redeemed (through no conscious act of their own) and can attend Mass that is all that they need to do to be a Christian. 

Baptism does free us from original sin, but does not take away ones ability to sin.  Original sin, left by our first parents is removed, but the ability to sin remains. Therefore, we believe that even though baptized, one can loose their salvation, if by free will they would decide to reject or not to follow Christ.  Going to Mass is not a "free bus ticket" into heaven. But, it does give us the graces to be strong perservere in our faith.  Unfortunatly, not all Catholics understand the fruits of their faith.

I cannot see how a person can just be baptized as an infant though, and not make a conscious decision to serve God but then again, I know that believers who are Baptist have never satisfactorily addressed infant/child death.  It is interesting to note here, that Baptism is where we differ in that I see redemption through what Christ did on the Cross, not being baptized. 

Paul, in scripture tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  For a Catholic, being saved is not a one time event, but a lifelong journey that begins at Baptism.  We are given graces at baptism, because water not only destroys, but it also brings new life.  This is prefigured during the Great Flood and also during the Parting og the Red Sea. Then when we fail and fall down, through reconciliation and sorrow for our sins, our communion with God is restored.  Our redemption is through Christ and the cross, but he continues to give us graces to strengthen our faith through both word and sacrament.  Baptism doesn't cancel Christs redemptive work, but infuses graces upon us.

However, while Baptism plays a central role for me it is more important for one's decision to actually accept the Christ and practice their faith accordingly.

For a Catholic, being saved is not a one time event, but a lifelong journey that begins at Baptism.  We make the decision to follow Christ and live for him daily, not just once in our life  Scripture nowhere forbids us to baptize infants.  In fact, Paul writes in his letters in several places about entire households being baptized.

In one of your earlier posts, you acknowledged that the Catholic Church was the true first Church.  St. Iraneus (125 -203 AD) was a Bishop trained by St. Polycarp who was taught by St. John himself taught of the importance of infant baptism.  So here we have this practice taking place, in the early church and taught by the early Church Fathers, not too long after the death of Christ.  Adult ONLY Baptism theology cannot be traced back this far.

You're free to disagree, but hopefully these are a few things to think about to spark further dialog.

Happy Thanksgiving!

PAX Christi,

Catalina22

Let me ask this question before I forget to do it-again.

Catholicism teaches that in the Eucharist one partakes of the body/blood of Christ and we all know that is a point of concern among Catholics and Protestants so, let us let that alone for now.  However, if that must be taken literally (and I am not here to claim one or the other) then why when John the Baptist "immersed" Christ, and Christ said what he did about it, does Catholicism not teach immersion?

Joseph Bailey

Right off the top of my head?  Because John's baptism was a baptism of repentance.  According to Christ, what is necessary is to be "born again of water and the Spirit".  Christ himself did not mandate immersion...just water.

So my rote self decided to seek out an answer already studied and understood by those who (most likely) are not juggling husband, home, and 3 kids that are at home for the day...

Baptism: Immersion Only?

God bless!

p.s...in the Catholic Creed, we say, "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."  If a Southern Baptist wants to become Catholic, we do not rebaptize.

With infant baptism, from a common sense standpoint, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to be dunking babies under water.  There is a safety concern here.  The graces of the waters of baptism are the same whether immersed or poured, the freeing from original sin. 

In John 6, Christ gives us very clear teaching on eating the flesh and drinking the blood.  Show me in the Bible, in the same clearity,  where Christ mandates that in order for the graces of the waters of baptism to be effective, one must me fully immersed. Catholics accept full immersion or pouring as being a valid baptism.

It goes back to the question of symbolic vs. sacramental.

Catalina22

I was not looking to "show anything from the Bible" but was curious about this subject matter in reference to the Eucharist

In order to receive the Eucharist, one needs to be in the state of grace.  That means that one can not have original sin or mortal sin on ones soul.

To receive the Eucharist, without first being baptized, would be to receive it in the state of original sin.  Would we want to let Christ come into anything other than a "clean heart"?

Again, it goes back to a sacramental understanding of these things, rather than a strictly symbolic understanding. 

Catalina22

bhokuto,

That makes no sense.  If a person is not baptized, their soul is not in Sanctifying graces to begin with. 

The only way I can possibly "agree" with such a far-fetched statement is if the crying person was on their deathbed with no one to administer the sacrament of baptism.  But this is referred to as Baptism of Desire.

Bobo,

You wrote: You cannot tell God to change that infants heart when he or she is older, they have to decide, Free Will.  

Also, the adults who brought the child to God have some responsibilities, don't you think?

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

PTR, that's how the Church sees it.

We are not saved by faith.

We are saved by grace alone. 

The ordinary means of initiation into that life of grace is by Baptism. 

Lpioch

Thank you for your concise reply.  It is more to the point than many Church documents.

However may I, as one fallen away according to this round-table, add to the discussion?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776),
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp (Catholic Answers)

He (Jesus) therefore really saved mankind from sin and its consequences. As teacher He established the reign of truth; as king He supplied strength to His subjects; as priest He stood between heaven and earth, reconciling sinful man with his angry God. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm (Catholic Encyclopedia)

 Assent to the hiddenness of God is an essential part of the movement of the spirit that we call "faith."

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/209/story_20936_1.html (Joseph Ratzinger).

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Noel,

I would have liked to reply to you in the Conviction thread but it seems to be closed due to an exercise in futility.

In that thread, you questioned whether people in this round table considered you to be, in my own words, less than Catholic, in your posts.

Let me say that since I have joined these forums I have found you to be no different then the rest of those who participate. You present statements, facts and queries within the framework of the rules established by CE. I believe you are my brother in Christ, and I welcome the exchanges that we will have and appreciate those that have already occurred. You have deepened my faith and understanding of the same by your affirmations and your dissents.

To my last sentence permit to say in charity that, at times, you present thoughts that appear to be against logic. For example, you state that we should be in unity with our bishops but when speaking of the authority surrounding Apostolic succession, you find this unimportant. I realize that you mean in the grand scheme of things that one only need believe that Jesus is Lord of all but there is more to it.

You also state frequently that one should be allowed the freedom to ask questions, but when the Catholic League questions the logic of the office of the USCCB in giving a favorable review to a movie based on a novel by an atheist, who by his own words denies God, and desires the end of Catholocism, I can only say, huh?

Brother, I love you and desire to be with you forever in eternity. While here on earth in this forum, let us strive to love each other within the realm of this forum, and should I perhaps jump across the pond as I do on occasion, maybe we could meet and have a cup of Joe, no pun intended.

To end this post, let me say that you appear to be well read and well traveled in your attendance at seminars, talks and the like concerning your faith journey. Please do not be discouraged to the point that you no longer share with us your opinion and your faith.

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Joseph,

You wrote: You know, I have no idea

I agree.

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!