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That Lay Homilist Thing

(14 posts)

wljewell - Member
God loves you . In that article about Saint Thomas U. betraying its ecclesiastic roots, a comment was made about the Rochester, NY, ordinary permitting lay homilists in his churches. It is interesting - my own spiritual director wishes to promulgate my service to our pastor and our ordinary, Cardinal George, as a test-case lay homilist. Our pastor is alone in his role, and his deacons are retiring. My spiritual director has read way more from me than I offer here, and says I have a much more 'harmonious and personal' way of putting what pew dwellers might consider 'hard news' than priests he knows. He finds our sessions and my writings energize him with my direct but heartfelt thoughts. He loves especially my very homily-like lesson essays, and thinks that they would be welcome to common lay folk. He points out that he uses my expressions of my thoughts in bulletin pieces and his own homilies. And, yes, I know that my shepherds would be putting large responsibility on my shoulders. Besides my spiritual director, only my prayers support any such idea. It is in my prayers so many of my essays have their devotional - harmonious and personal - source. I would love, too - be excited, actually - to have a couple of regular weekly follow-up sessions with parishioners to discuss my homilies toward our mutual growth from the lessons and making me better at them. Moreover, I'd love to hear NoelFitz and others in these fora hold forth from a pulpit. I also think lay homilists would be open to and can be expected to get broader useful (and, yes, criticizing) feedback from parishioners at the church doors - 'He's only one of us.' What do you think? My dear father director would love to hear. (And, if Cardinal George gives his 'green light', would you like to be able to critique my homilies before I preach them?) Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com) PS: Would such role and honor bear the title of 'preacher', to which Saint Paul alludes about himself to Saint Timothy (1Timothy 2:7, 2Timothy 1:11) and recommends at Romans 10:14?
Posted 1 year ago #
Tarheel - Member

The lay-homilist concept is one I have heard only a little about.  And in those cases it was for parishes that didn't have a full time priest.

Part of me says "No" we should not allow laypersons to deliver the homily.  But the other part says it is a good idea as long as lay people aren't just picked at random and have been "certified" or trained in some way.  Perhaps that need to be catechists first before moving into this role. 

I do feel that lay people can in some cases relate to the congregation at mass at times than the priest on certain subjects.  Recently we had one of our lay people deliver a homily of sorts about tithing and how it benefited their family.  I got a more "personal" feeling and urge to tithe properly than I did when our priest speaks of tithing.  And I think a lot of the parish did too.  My only concern abut lay-homilists is that it would become the norm when it should be a special event.

 

Pristinus I would love to read anything you wrote.  In fact I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts here.  I have even copied and pasted in word format and printed out some of your postings so I can re-read them to stimulate thought or provide different "angle" about some subject matter.   

Have you ever thought about writing a book?  Or how about CE featuring you as contributor to the site with some of your writings.

Posted 1 year ago #
JosephMary - Moderator

Cardinal George cannot give a 'green light'! This practice is precisely forbidden by Rome!

May I refer you to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

63.] “Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”, is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself, “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.

 

Knowing this to be the directive of the Holy Church, even if your director approves, you cannot give homilies for you know it would be a disobedience to the norms. Sorry.

Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive
wljewell, I have self written 75 homilies for Bishop Flynn then he wrote his approval on each one to send to me. I have not delivered a homily during a communion service even though I am a Presider in the Absence of a Priest approved by our Archdiocese and have presided over many communion services. Father Rowan allowed me to tell the story of the life of Saint Nicholas for several years following his homily and also after mass which is acceptable. I do not see where your "speeches" would be forbidden "after the final blessing" although it is forbidden after the reading of the Gospel as a primary homily which must be spoken by a priest or deacon. I believe you could be allowed to speak following a homily first given by the presiding priest or deacon. Nearly any priest or Bishop will allow "speeches" after the final blessing of the mass.In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen
Posted 1 year ago #
MREINER16 - Member

What exactly is Redemptionis Sacramentum?

There have been so many other changes in the Church since Vatican II, is it possible that this too can be modified? I agree with the comments above that as long as a lay person is carefully chosen and trained, I see no reason why  other than what apparently is Church law (?) why a lay person could not give the homily. I think it should be reserved for those parishes wher the priest/deacon shorthage is very pronounced. Unfortunately, with the growing priest shortage in the US, what are the options?

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . + Thank you, all, for your thoughts. Now: + JosephMary - Cardinal George does not take a bath without consulting Rome. My spiritual director just thinks the Vatican would trust Cardinal George to see to all the necessary development and safeguards, etc., before any lay homilist took the pulpit. Chicago is a richly diverse archdiocese, and a place to try what-has-not-been-tried (under licit, valid authority) under our strong ordinary. However, I would think quite frankly I'd die before they'd complete the long preparations. Yana - I have told my dear father that that is the solution - have lay persons submit homilies to give pastors a rich array from which to choose to build their own. In this, for but one example, JosephMary need never be 'heard' to have the pew dwellers 'listen' in benefit to her spiritual richness. I said that the Chicago archdiocese could be vanguard in having the likes of a lay Homiletic Review. In future Church councils and Church liturgical conferences, this would be one mine of lay deposits of faith from which to gather great 'gems' of thoughts. This last is the better option. Just 'listen' to some trusted voices before having your ordained voice preach. My spiritual father thinks that that would not be the same. He considers me a natural preacher, in voice, gesture, tenor, tone - the whole ball of wax. He notes that even my emotions are tethered to the message; he will hear my voice tremble with my humbled tears before quotations from Scripture and in reference to God's love - my natural response to God's wondrous gifts. I am not afraid to be so touched, and that would touch many a heart with my sincere care for their eternal lives. He thinks that Cardinal George would also perceive the natural preacher in me. That would cause him to ask the Vatican to give it a try through him; and under close guidance and pastoral audition turn me loose on congregations. And, yes - to JosephMary and other rightly concerned Catholics - it would probably mean opening ordination into a role among deacons - preaching sub-deacons, or the like - for which one would have to qualify, train and accept a vow of obedience to one's ordinary through one's pastors. Like I said, I’ll be dead before . . . (An important aside: My skeptical daughter has told me that she thinks people would pay good money to hear my 'shocking intelligence' - an intelligence that in my voice comes across as in my writing it just does not seem to do. She is surprised that, as did my widowed spiritual director, I did not seek the priesthood. She'll listen to me even as she doesn't care to read me. I could draw the likes of her into Mass; and, at Mass, they could give to the Church greater means for catechesis, support of the needy, etc. (More importantly, they would hear of the Eternal Love that has eternal life for them.) Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
terhunej - Member

wljewell,

As stated above, it is forbidden so you should not give a homily even if a priest invites you.  As you said, you must either become a deacon or submit your writings for an ordained man to give as the homily (with whatever changes he may determine).  You can start giving talks after mass or lead an adult education or anything you like along those lines, but you must NEVER give a homily during the mass unless ordained - no matter how good you might be at it!

Posted 1 year ago #
JosephMary - Moderator

Ave Maria!

One may read the instructions of the Holy See regarding the proper liturgical worship in REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM which can be found at the Vatican website at

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

It does not matter how gifted or talented you are or how wonderful  your priest thinks you are!  Unless one is ordained, it is a liturgical abuse to preach the homily. Yes, I know there are ways around it and the 'lay preaching' is called a reflection or some such.

And certainly I know that many are angry because the preaching at Holy Mass is limited to the ordained. I have an Aunt who wants to leave the church because 'Sister' can no longer preach. Well, sister never could!  It was always a liturgical abuse and a prideful disobedience!

We lay folks do not get to vote and even our priests are to STOP changing the norms of the Mass, no matter how meaningful they might personally feel the changes to be. That is what has gotten us in so much trouble  over the past decades and what John Paul II and our present Holy Father have been addressing and trying to reign in.

And, yes, there are other ways to be 'heard' other than preaching the homily.  And with prayer, you will find that way.  A book? Articles submitted to magazines?  Adult education workshops?

I know there are dioceses promoting all sorts of innovations but the innovations have only wreaked havoc. Millions have left the church!

We are not protestants to continually tinker with things. Our Lord was obedient unto death. He is our Example.  We must be faithful to the Holy Father and the magisterium and the norms laid down by them for the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is imperative.

Posted 1 year ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

Warren,

Has your spiritual director helped you in discerning whether God is calling you to be a deacon? An ordained deacon can, of course, read the gospel and preach a homily at Mass. Maybe this is a shot across the bow from the Great Navigator...

I'll continue to pray for you, buddy.

Posted 1 year ago #
JosephMary - Moderator

Ave Maria!

I was thinking about this at Mass while Father was telling us about how he went to see Beowulf...

It is rather a shame that lay people even must debate some of the things that belong to the duty of priests.  In spite of the poor homily we heard this morning, it is father's responsibility to preach. I  wish it would be the Gospel!  But for him to sit on his duff and let another take on one of his priestly roles is not proper either.

We have this idea that 'full, active and conscious' participation means some exterior 'ministry'. There are 'ministries' for many things! But really the participation desired by church fathers is interior.  We are to enter into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that is not just a sharing of meal and ministry but the most perfect worship of God! We have lost sight of that in  many cases.  Our service this morning was a protestant like Mass. We sang about ourselves with a jazz mass and so on. 

Lay people visit the sick who are in nursing homes and homebound and in the hospital. Father goes to the gym. Something is very wrong with this picture!  Yet that is what happens here.  It is difficult to get father to come to the sick.  Patients are our VA essentially never see a priest! And only a priest can administer the Sacrament of the Sick and so many are in need. I mention this because too many priests have abdicated thier responsibilities!

To write homilies for a priest!!!!  A homily, a teaching, should be of the fruit of a priest's prayer life and his union with God. If he has such then why would he need someone to put words into his mouth?

As talented and as gifted as many lay folks are, it is not their arena to usurp priestly obligations. And many are encouraged to do so; it is not their fault to be seeking them therefore.

I have been invited to speak to the RCIA in December on Our Lady and the Saints. I sometimes am invited to speak to the youth. I have also spoken on the Holy Eucharist and adoration and vocations and Divine Mercy.  I do not seek out the opportunities; they come to me.  But my place is not in the sanctuary at Mass. There are other ways!

Posted 1 year ago #
Zachaeus - Member

Warren, first of all...good on you man! Second, the use of the word "homily" may in fact be problematic as it may be an exclusive action of the ordained clergy. However, a "reflection" is the term I understand to be the correct reference to a layperson "speaking"—with ecclesiastical approval of course—after a Gospel reading. Let your light shine Warren!

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . First - I will say to any who want to listen that I enjoy conversation - tete-a-tete, dialogue, chewing the fat - NOT preaching. My preaching in any way is off-the-cuff, usually part of a conversation and in answer to a question. I don't seek to preach homilies; I don't much want to preach homilies. And, PTR, about any non-marriagable ministry, as I have told my spiritual director to a good hearty mutual laugh: "I like girls too much." Even as I am very, VERY highly unlikely ever to marry again - not even if your delightful, widowed elderly aunt asks you if you know "some available [HARDLY 'eligible'] fat, bald, broke old guy on his last legs" - I just refuse to foreclose the option. UH-uh! However, I must admit that I found an interesting insight very provocative. In Mark 2, Christ is said to have drawn the people because He 'taught with authority'. In looking up what that meant more fully, it seems that as compared to the preaching offered by rabbis, scribes, etc., Christ taught like a prophet. With that in mind, maybe what my spiritual director hears in me in my words is more like a prophet's herald than that which he hears from his ordained fellows. Sadly, I can believe that. Think, now: when was the last time any of us has heard a prophetic-style homily? When have we heard 'teaching with authority'? Yes, there are many venues for preaching, etc. I find mine quite frankly in writing. I 'preach' from what I write. In writing, I develop my statements that they mean something to me. (It just could be that this very personal assimiliation into my faith makes for a more powerful vocal expression of my knowledge.) You see, to me they are meant for my salvation, and only coincidentally for yours or anyone else's. I don't have any burning desire about preaching them or publishing them. My fire is for heaven, and for me with God in heaven. Hope you all get there, but it won't be from my preaching. And, if you ever read anything of mine formally published, you'll probably find it was done posthumously. My spiritual director (with a twinkle in his eye) has already thought aloud about getting my daughter to put my writings together. They are welcome to THAT nightmare. Though, if they attempt it, I do hope it helps get them to heaven. Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
terhunej - Member

Z

The only preaching that happens after the Gospel reading during Mass is a Homily, and may only be given by an ordained person.  No room for wiggle in there.

God Bless.

Posted 1 year ago #
Zachaeus - Member
Yes, for a Mass in which a Priest obviously has to be present or it wouldn't be a Mass. However, celebrating the Liturgy of the Word when no Priest is available a lay person, with approval of the Bishop, may in fact give a reflection following the Gospel. (See "Sunday Celebration of the Word and Hours" Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops 1995. p. 60, #92.)
Posted 1 year ago #

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