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Deconstructing "Catholicism"

(24 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by michaelme
  • Latest reply from michaelme

michaelme - Member
I finished Catholicism by Richard McBrien this past week and was wondering if anyone else has read this book. While I found the book “scholarly” to be sure, I can’t say that I found it particularly “Catholic.” I have always heard that Fr. McBrien is part of a cadre of dissident priests/theologians but have never read any of his work or heard him speak. After reading Catholicism, however, I have to say that if he is not dissident he is, at best, not a strong defender of the faith. Among some of the items that gave me pause are “alternate” theological views which, by the fact that they were given space in the book alongside Church teaching (and not contradicted as Aquinas did), may lead one to believe that these alternatives are or may become acceptable. Included among these are women’s ordinations, the possibility that homosexual relationships represent a valid expression of love, or the “understanding” that some protestant churches view of their “Eucharist” is, in essence, the same as Catholic’s, to name but a few. In addition, he references the works of Schillebeecx, Kung, and de Chardin as if they were mainstream, accepted Catholic theologians, giving no caveat to the potential or actual errors in their theology. Here is an example from pages 1103 and 04 of the book of how, I think, he sows confusion:
“Concerning the second question (Is membership in the Catholic Church contingent upon acceptance of these [Marian] dogmas?), the problem arises because each of these two dogmatic definitions is accompanied by an anathema or its equivalent. According to the 1917 Code of Canon Law, an anathema involves an excommunication (canon 2257, 2), but that consequence follows only when the rejection of the dogma is culpable, obstinate, and externally manifested. (The canon is not part of the revised 1983 Code.) “What of those Catholics who wish to belong to the Catholic Church, who confess the Lordship of Jesus, who assemble for the Eucharist in faith, who take the Word of God to heart, and who bear witness to the Gospel in their love of and service to their neighbor? Should the questioning or even denial of these dogmas be regarded today as presumptive evidence of a lapse from Catholic faith? It could be that in their questioning or denial of these dogmas, some Catholics are reacting not against the Word of God to which these dogmas propose to bear witness, but against the inadequacy, incompleteness, limited expressive power, and historically conditioned character of these definitions. If such Catholics are otherwise faithful to their Catholic heritage and to the practice of their Catholic faith, would it not be possible to presume the opposite—namely, that they are sincere in their questioning and even denial of these dogmas (i.e., not culpable or obstinate) and that their rejection implies no correlative rejection of the major truths of faith with which these dogmas are related, e.g., the redemptive significance of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection; our hope in the resurrection of the body; the power of God’s grace to overcome completely the impact of sin? “It is possible, of course, that a Catholic’s rejection of either or both of these Marian dogmas would be a sign that one has separated himself or herself from the Catholic tradition and faith, and therefore from communion with the Catholic Church, just as Popes Pius IX and Pius XII warned. A person might, for example, reject these definitions precisely because they are papal actions. That person might believe that the Petrine office has no necessary place in the life and mission of the Church for the benefit of the Church universal. A person might also reject any place for Mary in the Christian dispensation and the Catholic tradition. Such views would effectively disengage one from the Catholic tradition and the community which embodies it. This is not to say, on the other hand, that a faithful and committed Catholic could not question the process by which these dogmas were formulated.”
Is this a valid expression of the Catholic position on how dogmatic pronouncements from the magisterium should be accepted by the faithful…that we can “question the process by which” dogmas are formulated? Doesn’t such questioning lead one eventually down the path to believe that the dogma itself may be invalidated, thereby undermining the Authority of the Church?
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Michael,

I have not read the book, but from your posting, I read one who is cautious about how he presents his ideas so as to not bring attention on himself, but on "such Catholics" and "those Catholics".  

I believe our forum friend, and brother in Christ, Noel, has stated many times that to question is not to err, but to be enlightened and persevere in our doubts. From this excerpt, I do not see heresy or undermining, but he comes right and says that a faithful and committed Catholic can question the formulas...

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
David: Thank you for responding. I suppose the question around this excerpt goes to whether one can question the process used to create dogma and not call into question the dogma itself if one (somehow) determines that the process may not be valid. I don't know that he is particularly heretical in his questioning but is such questioning proper a book that purports to explain Catholicism? Could you develop your second paragraph a bit? In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
dado - Member

If one means by questioning either the process or the dogma that one seeks only to understand more fully either or both then it would not be a problem. I think that McBrien means by questioning that the person does not give assent to the validity of either one or the other. They would then lack the 'obedience of faith' that the Church requires of its' dogmas.

It is not obedience to accept a teaching only if it makes sense to oneself. That is only setting oneself up as the authority to agree or disagree, in essence to play God.

Here is the Catechism on the dogmatic infallibilty of the Pope and Magestirium:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.

Dado

AMDG

Posted 1 year ago #
noelfitz - Member

One of my favourite quotations from Cardinal Newman is in his Apologia Pro Vita Sua (Chapter 5), when he stated that 'ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.'

NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Michael,  

The purpose of the Church is to answer questions. Why am I here? Who is God? How do I serve God? Who is this man Jesus? Was He a man or God? So we ask, and we receive the answers thereby being enlightened. Some would answer falsely, and the Church has been steadfast in holding on to the basic truths of life. Even when provided these answers and the foundation for their conclusion, one may still have some doubt.

The pope is the Vicar of Christ here on earth. Scripture and tradition point us to this conclusion. As the Vicar of Christ on earth, he is charged with "feeding" the flock. Some have failed miserably at providing an example by which the faithful may grow stronger in their faith. Because of the faults of man, it is good to question; to seek the truth beyond a reasonable doubt if you will, so that we may remain focused on the promises of Jesus Christ.

We should seek the truth always. In that search, it has been declared that it is fitting that Mary was without sin and that Her Son took her into heaven and crowned her Queen of the Universe. The Bible does not come right out and say these words, but with understanding one could also reach the same conclusion of Pope Pius.

A recent posting stated that there is a professor in Steubenville, who, back in 1993, started petitioning the Vatican and Pope John Paul II to declare infalliable that Mary is co-redeemer with Jesus. This is where I, for one, stand with the Church firmly in their prudence and patience. John Paul loved the Blessed Mother, but he was wise not to pounce on an opportuntity to give what is not his to give. Acting in the person of Christ and utilizing the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, he chose not to act. Possibly Benedict will, but if he does, I believe that it will come from God as everything the Church promulgates on faith and morals bursts forth from the eternal Truth, so that the faithful can persevere in their doubts, trusting in the loving censure of their father on earth guiding us to our Brother and Father in heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you have not done so already, please read Humane Vitae, and if you have, I urge you to read it again. In promulgating this prophetic treasure of the Church, he explains how some, if not a majority, of his venerable brothers in Christ desired that he change the Church stance on contraception. Yes, I believe it is good to question. Pray for wisdom. Try our resolve in the fires, and be made pure as the silver.

In Christ,

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
David: I believe that I'm in complete agreement with you, here. So it may be that I am misunderstanding something that Fr. McBrien is saying. As I read him, questioning the process by which dogma is formulated may be OK. But if the formulation and expression of dogma is an infallible ex cathedra pronouncement or a statement of faith from the ordinary magisterium, both of which are themselves dogmatic, mayn't one run the risk that, through that very questioning of the process, he is not assenting the will? Maybe I'm hung on the concept of "questioning." I'm reading it to say, "I believe in the dogmatic statement, I just don't believe that the process used was valid." In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . What I read in comments here is that McBrien, whom I hardly regard as any 'Father' I recognize, has managed to sow doubts, no matter what else you call them, and confusion about authority . . . . . . and why there are at least a couple hundred authors I read and would read before I'd read anything he writes. His reputation too well precedes the man. Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Michael,

More likely than not, his position as a priest of God, has you questioning his "questioning". He is in a position of authority himself. If not as a future bishop, definitely as one who is perceived to have knowledge concerning the Church. Too many of us are ignorant of Church teaching and heirarchy and rely too heavily on our parish priest or someone who decides he wants to write a book to explain what has already been defined. One only need know where to look. 

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
David: I think you've struck near what's bothersome to me. Is there a place in a "popular" book about Catholicism for a priest to, in essence, promote the alternative or to "question" the dogma formulation process? Perhaps I shouldn't read it as if it were a book for mass consumption but rather one for those already familiar with the basics. His presentation of "alternatives" then become jumping off points for exploring these theologians/theologies in light of Catholic understanding, allowing us to reject them on their own "merits" v. simple rejection because "the Church says so" (which, I believe, is also a valid reason to reject some things). In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Michael,

Being of sound mind and body, I do hereby execute following: I bequeath to my children my unending love for them and my fidelity in Christ Jesus. These words that may precede a last will and testament could also be attributed to Peter, Paul and the martyrs whose blood poured out sustained the belief in Christ we have to this day.

The great treasure of the Church is this "deposit of faith"; the teachings of the apostles and the breaking of the Bread. For who were these men and women, the Church Fathers and Doctors of the faith? Were they of great intellect and stature? Some were, but the majority had the gift of faith and expounded this faith into word and deed unseen or unknown prior to the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Today, I put great trust in these men and women to have discerned all there is to know about the Truth. There is nothing new under the Son. Because you have trained your mind and soul to recognize the Truth you correctly dispute inaccuracies using your mind and the authority of the Church. I stand with you, brother, in your belief and pray that God may continue to enlighten us and feed us in our faith.

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
David: That's great. I may copy your note without edit on some occasion (though giving you due credit). Nicely put. Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . Bravo, gentleman - you have grasped precisely why, after we are baptized and choose to believe, Christ's Church has more and more of the meaty food of Christ to give to us. HOWEVER - it pays to be very careful just whose idea of the meat of Christ we take. Any can poison a good portion. I frankly think that the likes of McBrien have wide audience precisely because they deliver the toxic dregs of paganism and Gnosticism so many even passionately think they want. Oh, yes - it is wise to have 'meat-tasters' among us; such as His gifts of Doctors and Fathers and Bishops of Christ's Church. Can you really think that someone like McBrien will ever be committed with any of those roles? David, your testament is worth copying and preserving. However, permit me to accredit you as one inspired by the Holy Spirit. You really think that we pick up these truths well on our own? As you state: "God [does] continue to enlighten us and feed us in our faith". Remember, I love you, too . In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

Warren,

Thank you for your affirmation and, in all humility, I submit that I am but a receptor that seeks only to share that which has been given to me. In my humanity, I stumble often, but when the Truth comes forth in fullness from these fingertips and these lips rest assured it erupts from the wellspring of the great Paraclete.

Michael,

Thanks for being a "taster", we are pleased that not only have you not been poisoned but that you provide a potential antidote for those that may not be ready to taste.

In Christ,

 

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
LiveBlueForever - Inactive

Questioning of dogma itself is not a bad thing as one need only to look at Thomas for support for that approach.  In fact, a good questioning may do one's faith immense good.

 

I have not read the book in question but would like to point out that whatever Protestant churches think of the Lord's Supper, it is not what a Catholic would think of when asked about the Eucharist

 

Joseph Bailey

Posted 1 year ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

Joseph,

Your post on questioning dogma may well have some merit. One's personal journey has to include the intellectual honesty to closely look at what you are going to accept.

But if one is charged with teaching the faith to college students (as Fr. McBrien is) at a Catholic university (as Fr. McBrien is) and one is an ordained priest in the Catholic Church (as Fr. McBrien is) then the role of questioning dogma is different.

But I can understand how Fr. McBrien can take the approach he does.  After all, by being an ordained priest who teaches theology at Notre Dame and being a reliable voice to question the teachings of the Catholic church, he gets invited to be interviewed by all the news shows and documentary makers.

It is much easier to confirm darkness with popular doubts and shadows than to shed light with unpopular truth and the teaching office of the Church.

Posted 1 year ago #
Zachaeus - Member

Wow Michealme, I thought I was the only addicted-to-God human who has read this ridiculously lengthy book from cover to cover! I have the “Study Edition” and actually enjoyed the reading. One of the first things that caught my attention is that the book does not carry an "Imprimatur" or the "Nihil Obstat". I understand this to mean that Fr. Richard P. McBrien is a “professional” theologian and as a result has the freedom to express his thoughts and suggestions rather freely and loosed from the chains (so to speak) of common catholic thought.

In my opinion everything is open to question including and especially dogmas of the Church. The truth must stand against the assault of sincere questioning. For example: take the dogma of the "Immaculate Conception", it just might turn out that we were all immaculately conceived. That wouldn't make the Church dogma wrong just viewed through a clearer lens. It is true to say that when this dogma was first inspired it was at a time well before we came to a better understanding of human reproduction. It has always been my personal conclusion that the early Church Doctors would not have reached some of the conclusions they did had they known that Mary would later be considered the "biological" Mother of God—meaning that Jesus carried the DNA of Mary. Refer to CCC #496 for more clearer confusion on this matter. Yikes!

God Bless you Michaelme!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

And as carrier of that DNA, the flesh of the Son of Man, is the flesh of humankind. We are one Body!

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
David T Garrison - Inactive

...through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit!

Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Posted 1 year ago #
yanastrovich - Inactive
joseph, When one understands the truth, questions are not necessary. Questions are for the confused.In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
Zachaeus: Sorry for the delay in reply. We've been moving into our new house and so I've taken some a bit of time off. I, too, have the "study" edition of the book and, yes, it is rather too long, even for the addicted-to-God non-theologian. I agree that anything can be questioned, but as for the dogmatic, even if one cannot understand the answers one must give his assent to that dogma, knowing that the Church is preserved from error. As to the immaculate conception, if all were so conceived, wouldn't that invalidate another dogma...that of Original Sin? "More clearer confusion." I like that quip. Regardless, I found that Fr. McBrien's book did a better job at providing questions about the faith than it did answering questions about it. As to questions being for the confused, Y; Questions are for the curious, the ignorant, or the seeker of truth as well, not merely the confused. In order to understand the truth, one must first ask questions...personal revelation excepted. Joseph, I, too, would agree that it is unlikely that protestant churches have the same understanding of Eucharist as the Catholic...thus mybelief that the book does a poor job of really making the Catholic Faith clear to one unfamiliar with it. David and PS: Thank you for your support and kind words. In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
Winslow - Inactive

Richard McBrien is a disgrace to the Church and to the priesthood.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator
There are 2 kinds of questioning.  The first is faith seeking understanding.  The second is simply pride and doubt (lack of faith) seeking nothing but to discredit.  These are the two extremes, but it is always and only acceptable to question by way of the first.  The second does nothing for the soul.
Posted 1 year ago #
michaelme - Member
Loretta: Great point. The second can be a tactic in argument when one hasn't a strong position and must resort to this type of sophistry. In Christ, Michael
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - GK Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #

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