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sex and mass
(22 posts)My friend sex is crude, not pure. Think about this again. The Holy Mother who is a Virgin never felt pain, never had a Man to know her and she is called Mother Church! I think not.
God Bless
Needasaint,
Sex itself is pure, not crude. Our fallen human nature has diluted love with lust. If sex were so crude, why did God create it as the way to propagate the species?
the BVM needed to be without sin in order to bring Christ into the world. She was conceived without the stain of original sin. Christ is Fully Human and Fully Divine, thus the Holy Spirit conceiving in a human (Mary).
If Mary did not "feel pain" then watching her son being killed in the crucifixion would have been a walk in the park, and not described as "a sword will pierce your own heart".
Mary is also not "Mother Church". You're confusing some metaphors or symbolism somewhere.
It is true the Church is the bride of Christ. Perhaps by using the term 'sex', the idea you are trying to express is intimacy.
Human intercourse is not shameful; it is nothing more or less than a biological process and an intimate part of our human nature & form. If anything, we ought to try to emulate what goes on at mass. It certainly is not the other way 'round.
While I understand your idea of the intimacy involved between Christ and Church, I do not think saying mass is similar to sex is correct. The word similar implies a level of parity that is not there. Maybe you could say (again) that we ought to try to make our intimate relations similar to the intimacy of mass, but certainly not the other way 'round. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly but really, I am afraid you are comparing apples to oranges.
Mass is a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and of his resurrection into heaven. It is a true miracle and sacrament. Sex is not a sacrament, nor is it a miracle. Marriage is a sacrament, and loving human intimacy is a miracle of sorts in that it comes from our hearts and minds.
I am not sure this helps the discussion, but I hope it does.
Sex is crude my friend.
Holy Mother is Mother of the Church or Mother Church,
And I failed to mention that the pain the Virgin Mary never felt was in giving birth.
She was not impregnated by man, nor was she impregnated in our sense of the word.
The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the Almighty shall over shadow thee, and guess
what's next? The Son of God shall inhabit thee (and teach thee as He is growing inside thee as flesh and blood and Spirit, this is a mystery)
God cannot be reborn, in order for this statement to be true >> WAS IS AND EVERSHALL BE
God cannot be reborn rather He incarnates Himself as God and Man, God being a Spirit. God being the Creator of Man can inhabit man as He see's fit at any given time. God gave to Adam everything! The world, the woman, the knowledge, the Spirit, and All was GOOD! No Evil.
Eve failed because she was tempted by Evil itself. She was mesmerized by Evil, Satan. Rather than fleeing to God she took from the tree and ate it! She made this decision after being tempted lured by Evil. Then came Passion! as head of the brain, is enveloped in sex, crude my friend. Nothing good about it. Only what comes from it if God blesses you with a child. You must contemplate get beyond the fibers of the flesh it knows passion animal in nature, concupisence(check spelling). A Pure soul needs not these things. Because God is not crude nor of the flesh.
A Spirit can do anything! Don't forget this ever! God is a Spirit! And God is Infinite who came to finite man to save him from the works of the Devil. Believe not every "spirit" but try them to see whether they are of God. God is truth, Satan is the untruth or falsehood. What changed Lucifer?
Pride! worst that can happen to any being. Pride springs evil. Incubation. Stewing, contemplating.
And you say but God said to the woman "you shall have pain in child bearing" which is part of the original sin. O Mary conceived without Sin. the Ever Virgin Mary was is and evershall be or I should say Was always in God, became flesh and now is Queen of Heaven.
God Bless
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Take a look at the animal kingdom and then the next time you have intercourse with your spouse tell me if you see God in it? Can you see the face of God during the act?
Man has three parts:
Spiritual, Moral, Animal.
Our bodies are a gift from God. The Flesh which houses the Spirit making one. Which part benefits after the act? it was changed at the Garden. Sex is a passion an animal instinct, some cultures say this, if a man does not release he will have some problems. Making this statement I just said true. Crude.
Jesus himself told the Saducees (those who do not believe in the resurrection) in heaven man nor woman marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels in heaven. We can see no marriage, but next we have to go back to Genesis.
The Lord said to the woman you shall have pain in child bearing. Where as before she would not. This is an if then statement. If this then that, if not then not.
You're too accustomed to the flesh. And not to God. Thus you need to contemplate God to understand what I say. Because we are living a life that God never intended for us to live as in sin filled fleshly desires. People think sex is from God. It is not. Jesus said, for the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce. In the beginning it was not so with God. Sex is a man and womans idea breathed into by Satan. Having children is Gods. Now I'm saying is this, God intended man and woman to have offsprings but not in the crude sense it is now today and has been going on since Adam and Eve. With the exception of The Birth of the Virgin Mary and The Birth of Jesus, oh and Sarah, Abrahams wife who gave birth to Issac in her ripe old age.
Thus some clues I'll give you. Conceive, Immaculate Conception, Virgin. Why does God stay away from the bed? Why does God always say to Israel words like gone whoring, harlot, that prostitution is an abomination [ Leviticus 19:29 Make not thy daughter a common strumpet, lest the land be defiled, and filled with wickedness ] Because this part is Gods pet "P". He did not design man to be filled with animal passions. Emphasis is "filled". I AM a Jealous God. Why is fornication so mortal? Because it is sex and crude. If it was not then it would not be considered sin. If it was Good as in Gods good, then you would be able to copulate with others and this would not be a problem. Thus sex is only complete in marriage, yet crude still because we are still in the catch phrase of the day "Corrupted Bodies". Stain of Sin. No amount of holy water is going to change this fact. No amount of communion, why does God tell us through the Bible we will get new bodies in Heaven? Because nothing soiled by sin can enter into it. Thus sex is crude. So is your's and my bodies. Only our souls will be saved, thus emphasis of the Gospel is to save ones' soul. Your soul is in the likeness of God Almighty.
Read the many clues in the bible to get this understanding. I've been there my friend. I thought as you do you. God has given you the path to take, receive it with meekness and bow your head to Him. You will go a long way it.
God Bless
I think you misunderstood in all the details. Which is why you are used to the current body and the traditions of it.
I say again, God did not intend for us to have a crude way of procreating. God made man to reproduce but not in it's present state. To vulnerable much like inclusive language. No end to it. A more Pure way. Take a look at the Virgin Mary, it was a spiritual conception, that is what I meant to say. She is the New Eve, Paul says this, but does not go into much detail because he was talking about something else. And perhaps of the many books that did not make it to the bible there is some greater length testimonies which we are not privy to.
Also, if we were not sinners and maintained Gods laws that were explained to the first parents, there would be no sex as we call it today. It would be called Conception and that being Immaculate.
God Bless
Ah, from the limited congressional library of books and thoughts. One can't fathom the true life.
Explain why Jesus came.
Then explain whay Mary is a Virgin and became the New Eve.
Then explain why our current bodies will be exhanged for new ones (corrupt for the uncorrupt) Many New testament verses to base this on it is not a theory.
Then resort to your spirit who searches for all truth. Then learn the truth. Heresy is nowhere in this as you are accustomed to half-truths.
Learn from the Master of the Universe who you claim to know.
Then after you have asked Him yourself, return to your shameful self.
You will find that you are a slave to this current body that is full of malice and passion. Which Paul writes about in Romans 7.
Next God uses what is present our current fallen nature.
Another point, you find it goofy but you and I are the same, we have the same fallen nature.
Also, you cannot put New wine into old wine skins less the they burst.
Finally a sinner is one who realizes this, that your unclean. << get a deeper meaning of this word ..
Remember He who cleanses himself now spends less or no time in Purgartory. I find that most of you don't care one way or the other, but here's the deal read it for yourself. Those who go straight to Heaven don't wake up down the road apiece that is 1000 years later. Those who go to purgatory are those who come up whenever God says you're ready.
There will be a 1000 years of peace before Lucifer set loose from the bottomless pit. Then afterwards comes the judgement. But before the 1000 years of peace on earth is the 2nd coming of Christ. So where to you want to be? Don't kill the messenger he is only trying to help. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth until you know what is in it.
God bless
"Explain why Jesus came."Jesus was Incarnated to suffer and die so that humanity might be re-united with God." Reunion was necessarybecasue Adam and Eve transgressed the expressed will of God that mankind were to accept the role alloted to humans in creation and that in that role they were to, among other things, obey God. But you knew that. So why did you begin with this in your rejoinder (to whom, by the way)?
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
" ...explain why Mary is a Virgin and became the New Eve."Absent a specific revelation, the reason for Mary's virginity can only be speculated upon. There is adequate rationale already advanced by the Church. In the declarations of the Church, has the mantle of revelation ever been wrapped around the teaching regarding the "why" of Mary's virginity? In what sense do you understand that she "became the new Eve?" Did the first Eve lose her place as the biological mother of Abel, Cain, Seth, etc? Isn't this a poetic expression used by the inspired writer to convey something quite different than anything in the natural order?
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"...from the limited congressional library of books and thoughts."We have the word "thought." We also have the word "Congress." Whenever one uses these two words in the same sentence, one risks casting doubt on the validity of one's perception of the real world. (Just a thought.)
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"...explain why our current bodies will be exhanged for new ones (corrupt for the uncorrupt) Many New testament verses to base this on it is not a theory."Can you provide a passage that explains what the nature of that corruption is? It appears that you view this corruption as arising, at least in substantial part, from the mechanics established by God for the procreation of our species. If this is an accurate surmise, then it would appear as if you believe God created something that was not "good" in His sight. Yet, unless the mechanisms were "add ons" provided by the serpent, the passage in Genesis ("...and He saw that it was good.") contradicts your suppostition. How do you reconcile the two? (See P. S.'s post above -- at least at the moment it is above.)
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"Learn from the Master of the Universe who you claim to know. Then after you have asked Him yourself, return to your shameful self. You will find that you are a slave to this current body that is full of malice and passion. Which Paul writes about in Romans 7."Unless I misuderstand how you are using "know," it has not been given to me to "know" God; through His grace I know of Him." As to my self. Yes, it is indeed shameful. Despite my awareness of the prideful aspects of believing that my sin is greater than that of any other "homo sapiens" I will assert that, yes, I have much for which to be ashamed. And yes too to the part about my enslavement. However, all of these shortfalls are my own doing. The result of my not being able to control my fallen anture. They are not the result of the nature that God gave homo sapiens upon its creation. As such, the points of yours I have cited in this post do not advance your thesis.
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"Next God what is present our current fallen nature."Did you intend this to read "God uses what is present in our current fallen nature.?" If this surmise is corrrect, then I would concur if this is predicated of the act of procreation (as well as numerous other human acts). However, I am puzzled how you might recognize this and still hold your other views. I especially am puzzled as to why you would use all of this as a metaphor for the Mass. The Mass is divinely instituted and may be tainted (but never invalidated) by the unworthiness of those assisting. Even the celebrant's taints are only rarely causes of invalidation. However, your perspective on procreation , at least in the above syllogism, acknowledges the taint is entirely human. I would avoid such a comparison.
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"Another point, you find it goofy but you and I are the same, we have the same fallen nature. Also, you cannot put New wine into old wine skins less the they burst."In application in the current context, this is a little too mystical for me. Could you explain why this is pertinent to your thesis and show more of the steps of your reasoning.
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"Finally a sinner is one who realizes this, that you're unclean. << get a deeper meaning of this word .."I didn't see where anyone who answered claimed to be without sin. So where are you going with this line of thought? Also, to whom is "<< get a deeper meaning of this word" addressed?
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"Remember he who cleanses himself now spends less or no time in Purgartory. I find that most of you don't care one way or the other, but here's the deal read it for yourself. Those who go straight to Heaven don't wake up down the road apiece that is 1000 years later. Those who go to purgatory are those who come up whenever God says you're ready."After death, what is time?
As to anyone going "straight to heaven," I think this is a very small number of the people who will have lived when the Final Judgment ends all.
"Those who go to purgatory are those who come up whenever God says you're ready." But maybe the conviction which consigns one to purgatory is a self-originating one based on the soul's glimpse of the Beatific Vision and the attendant increase in understanding. And further, maybe the convicted soul remains in purgatory until the soul recognizes itself, on the basis of that God infused knowledge, to be ready for the eternal grasp of that Vision. How do we know it is otherwise?
In any case, how does this improve the aptness of the original metaphor of the marriage act and the Mass?
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
"There will be a 1000 years of peace before Lucifer set loose from the bottomless pit. Then afterwards comes the judgement. But before the 1000 years of peace on earth is the 2nd coming of Christ. So where to you want to be? Don't kill the messenger he is only trying to help. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth until you know what is in it."So, is this 1000 years "years" in the sight of God or "years" in the sight of homo sapiens?
As to "killing the messenger": Why would you be reluctant to die for the Truth, if that is the fate of a messenger sent from the Most High? On the other hand, if you harbor some douts about what you are asking us to believe, perhaps reluctance in this matter is appropriate. (Regardless, rest assured that I harbor no ill will for you, nor do I think anyone else here does. It is just a curious juxtoposition and doubtlessly you spoke in hyperbole.)
As to the "horse's mouth": Are we not allowed to learn from the Trojan experience? Alternatively, how can one know what is in the mouth of a gift horse unless one looks? (BTW: The expression comes from horse trading. A horse's age is difficult to judge from appearances. However, the wear on the teeth is a good indicator of age. Therefore, it behooves one to look a horse in the mouth when a trade seems overly advantageous to oneself (in other words, when the proposed trade seems like a gift).
- Regards,
- Old Sigma
Just remember some of Jesus' words: Men and women neither marry nor are given in marriage in Heaven for they are as the angels in Heaven. Will there be procreation in Heaven? Probably not, the earth is the field and the angels are the reapers of the harvest. The act of sex is only for this animal world. We are fallen from Grace. Grace did not have crude sex. Therefore Grace gave birth to Jesus. Grace had children in mind, a race. His way was taken away from Him by one Satan. God is Love and God has pain. From the very beginning We have His "likeness" the Soul. That is His image in us. Did Jesus procreate?
2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.
God bless
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