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Response to "Alright, so who do we vote for???"

(104 posts)
  • Started 11 months ago by MattyMattyChooChoo
  • Latest reply from MattyMattyChooChoo

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Jakes - Moderator

PTR,

The answer to your question right now is "We don't know".  And the reason is that we have things backward.

We shouldn't be asking ourselves questions (such as "Whom should we vote for?").  We should be asking questions not of ourselves but of all candidates who seek our support and the questions we ask them need to be questions that will elicit a true picture of how they would deal with the most important issues in life that government might affect - for good or evil.

Right now, the primary question is how they would govern or administer the position to which they ask us to honor them, in such a way that human dignity would always be respected and protected within their span of influence.

The most aggregious violation of human dignity is the abortion of innocent, unborn human beings.  It is most aggregious both by virtue of its severity to those lives and by the massive number of such lives affected: more than 3,000 innocent human lives each and every day in the USA, in excess every day of the total lives taken by terrorists        9-11-2001

The Golden Rule - to which most American would subscribe - says "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you".  Surely no one would choose to have his own life taken away brutally (aborted).  So why are so many American citizens silent when their ballots could stop the carnage of their neighbors: 3,000 plus of them each and every day.

Where does each candidate for office - federal, state and local - stand on this issue.  We have a right to know; we need to know; and it is our responsibility to find out (as regards each of them, to our satisfaction) and take appropriate action (our vote) to right this wrong.  Where did such personal responsibility of each citizen arise and how binding is it?

God's Great Commandment includes a requirement on each and every one of us to "Love your neighbor as yourself".  That Commandment is not an option without consequence for its ignoring.  It is the most vital and basic Commandment - with eternal implications for good or ill.

Peace    Jakes

Posted 9 months ago #
MREINER16 - Member
It is easy to focus on the Presidential election, but as former Speaker of the House tip O'neil once said, "all ploitics is local". We probably cannot do much now about the presidential election. It will be McCain vs. Hillary or Obama. What we can do and should do is mobilize for local elections-which is where most in gov't gets done anyhow. It is at the Town, County, Village and State levels where ploitics is "played". It is here where monies are allocated to Planned Parenthood, condoms are given away, schools change curriculuums to "Johnny has two Mommies", etc. We Catholics in NY are now mobilizing to stop our pro-choice Governor from forcing Catholic institutions in the state to perform abortions. This needs to be stopped and I'm sure similar things happen in other states. So, yes, lets vote for a President that most closeley aligns with Catholic values, but remember not to focus only here every 4 years. Remember the wise words of Mr. O'Neil and work locally to ensure Catholic values are followed in your own schools, towns, villages and states.
Posted 8 months ago #
Jakes - Moderator

MREINER16

I'm pleased to read your comments.  Perhaps I'm presumptive (I hope not) in thinking you might appreciate some ideas I've been floating about.  They're not exactly yours but I suspect we might have room for dialog and action.  So, I'm going to reproduce here a post I made to Fr. Pavone's article of Feb 29 in CE's The Edge. 

That post follows:....

Valid, perceptive supporters of God’s gift of life recognize many fundamentals that others miss. An enumeration of some of these fundamentals follows.

1. In our political system of checks and balance, no single elected official imposes, nor can quell a national culture of death. That culture is sustained through deliberate collaboration of multiple agents, at multiple levels, both within and outside of government. Politics, however, is the lynchpin by which that culture was imposed initially through government, and is continually maintained thereby.

2. Accordingly, certain realities present themselves very clearly. The following seem such.

3. Restricting one’s life-supporting aspirations to just electing a president isn’t enlightened thinking.

4. Waiting till election day to "send a message" isn’t, either.

5. Candidates for all political offices at all levels need be made aware, early, of constituent resolve.

6. Such resolve need be consistent with moral convictions that guide individuals’ lives.

7. Whether well observed or not, the Ten Commandments fill that purpose in the lives of most.

8. God’s Great Commandment "Love God .. Love your neighbor as yourself" underlies the Ten.

9. Innocent, defenseless human beings in the womb are our neighbors.

10. Mothers of these unborn are our neighbors, too. Yet they occupy a uniquely precarious status.

11. As the agent legally free to order her baby killed, she’s vulnerable to 3rd-party pressures to do so!

12. Back to #8, above. At a minimum, "to Love" is to care about and help a neighbor in need.

13. (Well numbered?). God isn’t likely to forget those who won’t love neighbors with a simple vote!

14. Perenially, 50% of all eligible to vote fail to do so, allowing 3,000 human beings killed each day!

15. Others ignore the abortion-facilitating actions of candidates, voting for them for other reasons!

16. Assuming God’s records are pretty good, those related to His Great Commandment surely are.

17. Eternity’s a long time for anyone to pay for election day indifference (lack of caring) to neighbors.

18 . Pro-life groups need put these ideas as 1st priority, aided by clergys’ teaching obligations to Love.

19. Learning well God’s intent expressed in #8, citizens need actively initiate #s 3, 4 & 5 pronto!

By a subsequent post I said the following:

In my post of 2/29/8 I should have inserted the following as Item 8a:

8a    Persistently and actively collaborating with associates, "smoke out" publicly, all candidates' truly held positions on Love of neighbors in the womb and the mothers who bear them.

Peace,         Jakes

Posted 8 months ago #
MREINER16 - Member

Jakes,

 

Your fundamentals appear sound and I would day that your precept #8 of God's Great Commandment goes well beyond the support of Mothers and their potential children. It, in my opinion, extends to end of life decisions, the death penalty, the poor, etc.

 

I guess the real question in front of us is this the precepts of the majority of Catholics in this country? Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that question. Why do Catholics not organize around your well said precept #8? Do they not believe it or do they not understand it or do they not know how to put it into action? I think these fundamental questions need to be addressed before we can implement precepts 3, 4 &5. There are some Catholic groups (K of C, RTL, St. Vincet DePaul) that do some of this work, but I think much more can be done. I would be interested to hear what others think?

Posted 8 months ago #
Jakes - Moderator

MREINER16,

I thank you.  Funny, something told me when I read your previous post that you are one to talk to.

I like your invitation to others to weigh in and I will hold in abeyance, therefore, some particular comments on your questions.  Let me just say that November isn't too far away for great progress to be made. 

Consider: that the overwhelming massiveness of the non-voting contingent (who surely aren't abortion ideologues, else they'd be out first to vote) presents a rich potential for broken inertia as a result of the dawning on them of TRUTH, elements of which reside in the 19 points I listed.  Conversion of only a marginal portion of the 50% is all that's needed.  Surely, that's not unachievable.

 

Peace,    Jakes

Posted 8 months ago #
HotCoffee - Inactive
I believe that Dr. Dobson has the right strategy.  There are 77 million Roman Catholics in the United States. If all these Roman Catholics agreed to vote Pro-Life, both parties (Republican & Democrat) would be forced to run Pro-Life candidates.
Posted 8 months ago #
MREINER16 - Member

HotCoffee- Agree that if all 77 million voted pro-life the politicians would take notice. The fundamental questions still remain- why do the 77 million Catholic not follow the precepts of the Church and how do get at least a majority to agree?

Posted 8 months ago #

MREINER16 and HotCoffee,

A couple of reasons why some of the 77 million Catholics do not vote for "pro-life" candidates.

1. A politician saying he/she Pro-life doesn't automatically mean they are pro-life.

Example: George H Bush ran as pro-life.  He did little to nothing for pro-life. George W Bush ran as pro-life and did great things for pro-life. Same running philosophy but different results.

2. A pro-life politician is not pro-life across the entire fabric of pro-life.

Example: George W. Bush promotes the death penalty and George W. Bush also went to war against Iraq.  George W. Bush promotes contraception in some cases.

GK - God is good!

Posted 8 months ago #
Jakes - Moderator

 

Would readers agree that, today, the alligator in the swamp of the culture of death is abortion and that it needs immediate attention if all the other ills of the swamp are, eventually, to be cleaned out?

That order for immediate attention (abortion first) is a very practical one, for tomorow there will have been 3,000 additional  innocent human beings torn apart unto death than the total through today and 21,000 more by a week from today.

Further, that "tearing apart" became legally permissable, and continues, through government sanction via the political process.

Those innocent human beings who, daily, are "torn apart" are our neighbors whom we have been COMMANDED to love.  Any indifference by any of us toward that COMMANDED love of neighbor would be a grave disobedience of God's Great Commandment, to love. 

The essential "ace-in-the-hole" for rescue of these neighbors is each citizen's resolve to cast a vote for their protection on election day.  Candidly expressing such resolve in advance of casting such votes is both prudent and just. 

This isn't a partisan political matter.  Rather, it's the easiest yet the most powerful, single action wan American can take toward caring and helping, as we, each of us, have been COMMANDED to do: Love our neighbor as ourself.  Besides it's in our, personal eternal interest

Peace,           Jakes

 

Posted 8 months ago #
lpioch - Moderator

You ask,

Would readers agree that, today, the alligator in the swamp of the culture of death is abortion and that it needs immediate attention if all the other ills of the swamp are, eventually, to be cleaned out?

Yes and No.

Yes because I see it as the most tragic as it is brutality against the most innocent.  But No because I do not see changing hearts specifically about abortion will necessarily clean everything else out.  Because our hearts are not "topical".  We may even be able to help people see the injustice against these innocent, but they still cannot see the injustices against the elderly, the inconvenient, and the adversaries.

Instead, as you so clearly and beautifully always proclaim, it is the TRUE love of our neighbor...not as ourselves (because we sometimes don't love even ourselves as much as we ought)...but as Christ loves them

We need to be much better at our baptismal call to the apostolate - to go out to preach the Good News and to get the world to know the TRUE Jesus Christ.  (Not the one they make up in their own imaginations)

Posted 8 months ago #

As to Abortion being the root of all issues ...

I think abortion is the largest and most consciously viscious reality against life but ... yet, I think the true root is contraception.  Contraception is more viscious against life, not only because contraception allows for the eventual acceptance of abortion, but because contraception turns sex into complete recreation with no love or commitment required or life expected as a possible outcome.  Contraception slaps God accross the face so often it cannot be counted.  It dwarfs the 3000/day number of abortions by leaps and bounds, it is easily 50 million at a minimum.  Contraception rejects any inkling of life.  And contraception rejects life in the most personal, complete and physical expression of love that human beings can muster here on earth.  Abortion is importantly the last step in a "natural" progression once contraception is accepted but contraception allows for it.  Our fallen human nature's logic fails if we accept contraception. 

 

Does that mean that I think Abortion is not an important issue?  In no way.  IT is of utmost importance.  But, the acceptace of contraception makes abortion an issue that will always be on the table.  I know the reversal of the acceptance of contraception is a more distance goal.  But, I think we should be pushing scientists and companies and our government to look at the bad impact of contraception on health, children, families as well as its support (root cause) of abortion and the culture of death.

GK - God is good!

Posted 8 months ago #
Jakes - Moderator

Sorry, GK, I've been off-line composing so haven't read your post but will do so promptly, knowing your thoughts  - like Loreta's - always to be so conscientiously meaningful.  Jakes.

 

Thanks, Loretta. I'm particularly pleased to have a response from you.

It seems very likely to me that I haven't conveyed adequately my objectives. For the reasons you express and because today there will be 3,000+ additional innocent, defenseless human beings added to the gross abortion total and a week from now there will be 21,000+ added (and on and on), abortion seems to be the most urgent and visible place to attempt to start certain changes.

Additionally, because abortion has been imposed on America politically and is sustained politically, then politically seems the logical, practical way to deal with that reality. 

One problem in the fight against abortion, seems to be coordinated, concentrated vitriol directed at individual priests and bishops who speak out publicly against abortion. Such confrontations can and do, I think, inhibit the ease, frequency and effectiveness with which clergy are able to pronounce Christ’s message: the basis of our faith. As you’re from New England, you’ll be familiar with the recent vitriol directed against the Bishop of Providence.

Now, if clergy, routinely (more frequently and strongly), were to teach to their congregations what is (and isn’t) the nature of the love of neighbor that we have been COMMANDED by GOD to exercise toward others, whoever they might be, our Catholic laity, individually, collectively, in pro-life organizations - however- could, publicly, make explicitly graphic the direct connection between that doctrine and the myriad and opposing permutations and machinations of America’s culture of death. And those explications might be as frequent, and take as many influential, legitimate, public means as our imaginations might conceive and wallets afford.

Wouldn’t that frustratingly multiply and disperse the targets needing to be confronted by opponents of our Culture of Life and Love, and rob such opponents of their facetious rant about the separation of church and state? Further, wouldn’t it be dealing directly and democratically to undermine the sand on which the culture of death is situated?. Wouldn’t TRUTH be their major source of frustration and failure?

Now, when democratic inroads have been established - hopefully, incrementally and visibly, leading to November 2008 - there will have grown a strengthened awareness in the US of how a lack of love of neighbor underlies discord throughout our society, beginning in families and coursing through all the rest of our nation’s institutions. Think of the contempt for life demonstrated more and more frequently among the young in their school communities!

Loretta, as you know, election after election, 50 % of citizens eligible to vote don’t vote. Logic says they aren’t abortion ideologes, else they’d be early (perhaps often) to the polls on election days. A small portion of 50% would be a major (whopping?) deciding factor in seating new politicians at every level of government  (It’s more than a president that counts!). So advice I hear that such and such won’t move voters, really needs to consider margins (increments), not masses.

Besides, every vote owned by someone who has formerly voted (for whatever reason) in favor of a politician supporting abortion counts - in reality - as two votes for our side: the one lost to "choice" and the one gained by LOVE!

 

Peace, Jakes

Posted 8 months ago #
Jakes - Moderator

GK,

I thank you.  You are so right.  And I think I perceive that you would agree that The Great Commandment of LOVE underlies it all.

You might be interested in this take.  Fictitiously, I pose a generous grandfather and his (very young in this tale) unappreciative grandson who treats the myriad gifts he receives from Gramps so carelessly that, promptly and routinely, they become disposable wrecks or - if monitary - are wasted avariciously on junk.  "Because" - he tells all - "Gramps will give me plenty more"!  I think (and others have agreed) that even his young peers become disgusted with his unappreciativeness!

God has given the human race bounteously, a marvelous substance allowing the flourishing of humanity, which, if God were, completely at any time, to withdraw this gift, the whole human race - with unimaginably painful distress by the last lived - would disappear within one "generation".  Yet we frolickingly catch this precious substance in condoms and throw it into the garbage, following which the consequences GK voices occur by the millions!

What would that selfish boy's little friends - if without first having been brainwashed by our culture of death - think of us? 

 

Peace,          Jakes

Posted 8 months ago #
bhokuto - Member
Revelatons 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.

9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


From Fr. Gobbi,

The water coming out of the mouth of the dragon or serpent or Lucifer or Satan, is Media, Technology, New Age, Cloning, Modernism.  The things which keep a soul from seeing God.

we spend less time in prayer, adoration, meditation, reading and doing spirtual things, because we are debating over who to vote for.  We do the same when we watch tv, play on PS1-3, Gameboy, DVD's, etc.,.  These things have become Idols.  1 Commandment.  It doesn't seem that way because the whole world is seduced.  Dullness of spirit, due to being
tickled in the ear and eye by new ideas.  This is exactly what got Adam and Eve into trouble.
Being tickled in the ear to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

Whatever replaces God in your life as Numero UNO or Number ONE is an Idol.  And most of the time we do not notice it.

The Blessed Mother in Her messages to many seers and visionaries has warned us about these things.  What is harmful to your soul. Satan works non-stop at putting forth his gospel.  What is Satans gospel?  Kill all mankind any way he can, by removing God from the soul and mind.  Through Knowledge.  The mind.  When God is at work in your life He is in your soul which His Word enlightens your mind.  Psalm 19.  When Satan is at work in your life the exact opposite occurs.  He comes to conquer your mind and than your soul making it dark and void.

We need to vote for Life to return through anguish and prayer.  Sorrowful Mysteries  Agony in the Garden.

Peace
Posted 8 months ago #

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Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge