Cericlenhof,

 re: The REAL CHURCH'S (ROME) position is that the cause of the need to emigrate needs to be eliminated.  Cardinal Mahoney's speel on the subject deleted that part.  Most of my long post is quotes from real (ROME) teaching documents. If you think I have taken them out of context read the documents.

You are mischaracterizing both the USCCB Statements on Immigration and the "Church" teaching in favor of an article in First Things? Come on! Please refer to my post above on Lumen Gentium.

Your "speel" above on the subject of Immigration is the one that "deletes" the parts that you disagree with and is very selective. Such mischaractherizations, and such a selective appeal to 1/2 sentences of the statements of Our Holy Father are all false arguments.

Angels fly because they take themselves lightly. G.K. Chesterton

Hislittlelamb,

You wrote:

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth.

 Above is the operative sentence from Lumen Gentuim with the bolded phrase very key.  The confusion lies in difference between "bishops" and "bishops' conferences."  The USCCB or any episcopal conference, I repeat, HAS ZERO DOCTRINAL AUTHORITY! To wit from the code of canon law:

ß2 For the decrees mentioned in ß1 validly to be enacted at a plenary meeting, they must receive two thirds of the votes of those who belong to the Conference with a deliberative vote. These decrees do not oblige until they have been reviewed by the Apostolic See and lawfully promulgated."

 The method of "promulgation" is by what is called a "recognitio."  Almost no USCCB documents have a recognitio. There is a strong tendency in the US to give weight to the USCCB because we are so focused on democracy. Individual bishops do have the authority alluded to in Lumen Gentium if in communuion with the Roman Pontiff.  Quite the opposite is the case with regard to documents promulgated by the Roman Curia. To wit:

"Can. 360 The Supreme Pontiff usually conducts the business of the universal Church through the Roman Curia, which acts in his name and with his authority for the good and for the service of the Churches. The Curia is composed of the Secretariat of State or Papal Secretariat, the Council for the public affairs of the Church, the Congregations, the Tribunals and other Institutes. The constitution and competence of all these is defined by special law."

I did not reject Church teaching in favor of an article in First Things for two reasons. First Things article itself did not reject any Church teaching of immigration. I do not reject any Church teaching on immigration. My post presupposed that part of Church teaching wrt the rights of immigrants. Both First Things and I only wish to point out a rather glaring ommission wrt solving the problem of why people need to immigrate.  No one comes from Mexico to the Midwest where I am for better weather.

  I in fact believe immigration from Mexico to be a potentially very positive thing because these people are CATHOLIC.  The reason I say "potentially" is because the Church in the US seems to be sitting idly by as they become absorbed by our pagan culture.  Why are the US bishops not asking me to fund immigrant chidren into Catholic schools for example?  The reason I say "positive" is that protestantism is the fundamental flaw in the US and all of Western culture.  The real enemy, "radical secular progressives", are just sola scriptura protestants whose private interpretation of scripture is: IT MEANS NOTHING!

 In any case the US has an obligation to pressure the corrupt Mexican government for reform not just provide a relief valve to prevent revolution down there.  I would like to legalize a million Mexicans and deport Michael Moore and his ILK!

I read the article via the link you posted (littlelamb), and generally agree with the bishops.  I usually find it difficult to get too worked up over Mexicans.  I live in California and we have quite a few undocumented Mexicans; if you want to see them, just go to mass any sunday.  When they arrive they are usually desparately poor but also, they are usually decent folks and hard workers.

In Sacramento (and in most cities of any size in CA) there is a street corner where the Mexicans always stand in the morning and during the day, waiting for work.  Generally the contractors stop early in the day to pick guys up three and four at a time and they take most of them.  Later, and throughout the day, regular people stop and pick up one or two guys to do household jobs like painting or yard work.  The thing that impresses me is when an older guy in his mid-late 70's for example, stops and picks up a 23 year old Mexican and takes him home, where he does the work and when finished, he brings him back to the corner where he got him, and with all the crime in a large city like Sacramento, I have not heard of a Mexican taking advantage of these older folks.  To me, that say something good about the Mexcian.  I mean the opportunity is there; an older couple with a nice home, and a young, strong guy who could easily overpower them.  It says something about the Mexican that one almost never hears of them causing problem in these sort of situations.

Since I am Catholic, it is easy for me to welcome these sort of people when they are Roman Catholic, and most are decent people.  I wonder, but frankly I doubt, if I would be so charitable if they were not.  Thank God I am not being tested on that one! 

In that respect, in spite of our troubles with them, we are probably lucky to have Mexico as our neighbor. 

Finally, I think it important to note that the Mexcians we get are not educated; many that I know have not completed fourth grade and can barely speak spanish, let alone english.  I guess the "smarter" ones stay in Mexico.  It seems incredible to me then, that a guy with no idea of how the world is, and who does not speak the language will travel 1000 miles or more to get a job at low pay, and send most of the money home to wife or mother.  He doesn't know jack, and will always be on the bottom rung, but other than when he cries because he misses family and Mexico, usually seems pleasant and happy, and goes to mass regularly.  Also, it makes me wonder about what sort of people the ruling and middle class in Mexico must be that they would totally abandon their own countrymen as they do.  In this respect, I doubt there are all that many smart, or progressive minded folk in Mexico proper.  It is simply a difficult situation all around.

There's really no need for confusion amongst Catholics. Any Catholic with a computer can go to the Vatican website, the USCCB website, or even Justiceforimmigrants.com website (all listed below) and read the Bishops Statements and what Our Church teaches us.

There is alot of mischaracterization going around about what the Bishops/Church teaching is on many issues, but especially with "hot topic" issues i.e. Immigration.

I had to educate myself about it once I "discovered" that I held racist attitudes. Last year during the "Immigration Protests" I was appalled that our Bishops seemed to be supporting Illegal Immigration. A few months later I was listening to a Conservative talk show host, Roger Hedgecock, interview our local police chief. I live in a border town in a border State and had assumed all the Mexican men I saw standing in front of Home Depot, 7-11, or U-Haul were "illegals". The police chief said that they get alot of calls reporting "illegals" at these places but everytime they send someone out to check ID's they find that 99% of them are here legally and just looking for work.

That made me feel like some racist. So, in my penitence, I did what I usually do when I'm confronted with the harsh truth about myself - I thanked God for grace of showing me the truth, then I went to my Church for guidance and read with humility what the Church teaches me.

Here are a few of the links: http://www.usccb.org/mrs/pcmr/statements.shtml

http://www.usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE PASTORAL CARE OF MIGRANTS AND ITINERANT PEOPLE http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/index.htm
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE PASTORAL CARE OF MIGRANTS AND ITINERANT PEOPLE; Instruction "Erga migrantes caritas Christi" (The love of Christ towards migrants http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/documents/rc_pc_migrants_doc_20040514_erga-migrantes-caritas-christi_en.html
Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People; Problems and Challenges of Migrants and the Response of the Church http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/documents/rc_pc_migrants_doc_2003033_srilanka_hamao_en.html

these are just a few, but one can easily see by reading these documents that our Bishops teaching is consisent with the Magisterium of the Church and our calling as Christians.

Leviticus 19: 32-34: "If a stranger lives with you in your land, do not molest him. You must count him as one of your own countrymen and love him as yourself—for you were once strangers yourselves in Egypt. I am Yahweh your God."

Another words live accordingly before the Deluge.  Remember why Noah was saved?

Do you see any similiarities of what God did to Pharoah and the Egyptians and what God will do to the whole world in Apocalypse?  Very similiar.  Sin is punishable by death.  That is the message of God.  We are just messengers to tell the poor souls who like in Noahs time failed to straigthen up. 

God Bless

Well, I think it important that we all understand we are all sinners, and that only God is perfect.

As for dealing with offenses and various types of people, it seems we should 1) Love God with all our heart, mind, and soul, and 2) Love our neighbor as ourselves.  In other words, try to do what Jesus told us and let God tend to His justice in His time, in His way.

Jesus also says give to Ceasar that which is Ceasars, and give to the Lord, that which is the Lord's.  It seems then, that we need to take responsibility for building and running our society in some reasonable fashion. 

Since we approach society from an American perspective, we know all men are created equal and are endowed by God with their inalienable rights.  Once we understand this, then we can set about to properly lay out the things we will consider normal, and those which we consider abnormal.  We need to understand that while we may tolerate a wide range of behavior, for the good of society at large, there are certain behaviors we should try to encourage, and other behaviors we should try to discourage.  It is like a spectrum, and many times boils down to a matter of degree, but in general we should try to encourage things that make us and our society better, and discourage things that tend to degrade us and/or the quality of our society.

But it seems that sometimes today the secularists have almost succeeded in convincing us that any talk or reference to God is bad, and that separation from God is good.  This is in fact the reverse of the truth.  We need to understand that our neighbors, friends, and even enemies are all creatures of God, and following the Golden Rule is always good, and distancing our society from God is always bad.

Now, this does not mean a mighty purge or pogram is in order - not at all.  It simply means we should take a honest look at ourselves and our society, and decide we should try to live up not only to our own high ideals as outlined in our treasured national documents, but we should also try to live up to God's ways, understanding all the while that since we are human and tainted by original sin, we will never totally, pefectly live up to either set of ideals.  We need to also know that this world and our place in it is temporary, and while we need to take proper care of it, that we are on a journey and our final home is hopefully with God in heaven, and that alone will be the perfect place and perfect time.

As for homosexuals, of course we should not condone anything as ridiculous and dangerous as gay marriage, but neither should we persecute these folks.  Each and every one of them was created by God, and has family who love them.  Obviously they are not correct or perfect, but on some level they know this already, and while we need to be firm in telling them we will not allow them to steer our entire society in a terribly wrong direction, we should also let them know we are Christian, we are not perfect, and we will tolerate them.

Hislittlelamb,

  Perhaps I am not making myself clear. The issue at hand is the extent to which bishops CONFERENCES statements are binding on the faithful.  The USCCB statements wrt immigration may or may not be in accordance with the Holy See. My point is they are simply not binding in any way. THAT IS CHURCH LAW! A better example is Always Our Children, a document condemned by individual US bshops, most notably, the holy Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz, who called the document "down right evil." Other bishops, God save their souls (this is not just an expression here), have praised it. These individual statements are potentially more binding than any USCCB statement provided they are not out of line with Rome.  USCCB statements are called "pastoral" statements precisely because of the provisions of canon law previously cited.

  Some months ago some parents here came to loggerheads with the diocesan youth minisrty office over a pro gay high school program based on Always Our Children.  They tried to argue the efficacy of the program based on that document before the bishop. On the advice of The St Joseph Foundation, we cited canon law and argued the document had no merit in the argument. They lost!

 I am perfectly capable of reading the documents of the Holy See and see no need for a comittee to help me. I used to work for the government. Jesus knew just what he was doing in giving authority to individual bishops (apostles) and supreme authority to Peter (popes). I can imagine the state of the Church if Jesus had told them to call a conference and vote.

 I SUPPORT THE CHURCH'S TEACHING ON IMMIGRATION IN IT'S ENTIRETY! 

If the bishops's directions are in line with Rome, then of course the people will follow, however they are not really following the USCCB's instructions, as they are following Rome via the USCCB.

Because of our great American traditions, it goes a bit against our grain, but the fact of the matter is that neither an individual American bishop, nor a conference of American bishops, nor indeed even the majority of the American Catholic community can change or invent Church doctrine. 

That of course, is soley the purview of Rome.  The Pope has ultimate authority, and the bishops and the rest of us must follow.

   Canon law is as it is. There are two sections, one regarding the authority of "bishops", which confirms what you say. The section I quoted previously is about "episcopal conferences."  The 1983 Code of Canon Law makes this distinction for fundamental doctrinal reasons. No group of bishops can impose on any individual bishop even in purely disciplinary matters because Christ made no provision among the apostles for this. The reason I know I am right is because in the case involving the gay program, the USCCB document was rejected from the argument without even discussing its content based upon canon law.

  As far as immigration is concerned, I disagree with the "illegal immigrants are felons" argument. Although technically true, we have openly NOT ENFORCED this law, so it is not a law in practice. The problem with the USCCB document is one of emphasis. We must address the issue of the injustice in Mexico that causes people to leave their homes.  This issue is buried in one phrase in the whole document.  These people are coming here because there are jobs here.  Of course there are entry level jobe here. We have been killing our workforce by abortion for 34 years!

As far as individual bishops are concerned we have some really bad ones! "And one of the twelve, Judas Iscariot by name, went to the high priest and said, 'What will you give me to betray Him?' " (Mt 26) Nothing has changed.

What you thought is true too! But you must understand the whole thing! So now we add to your knowledge the understanding of the the law. Remember the parable about the the camel going through the eye of the needle? and what Peter says? Who then can be saved?  Oh my ..... When we people read the Gospels we think in different terms, because we do not see the expressions nor the tone.  It's just black and white on paper.  Jesus full of Grace! Jesus full of Mercy! Jesus full of compassion!  God full of Love and Compassion!Lets think about this If you were God and you saw your creation a mess what would you do? Lets ask others this question and get their answers.  We have Gods natures in us His image dictates to us this truth. His Image is the soul.  Jesus goes to explain about fathers, if a wicked father can give gifts, how much more your father in Heaven?  The issue is not the fathers, it's the kind of fathers.  One is wicked the other is Good.  Our Father is Good.  We who are converted have the greatest opportunity of a lifetime!  What is that? To know God before hand.  What else? To help others come to this conclusion.

We look to the law for guidance, we all sin in our thoughts our words and actions.  That is why there are degrees of sin, venial and mortal.  The Law in Moses does not state this sin is greater than that, it does however show what sins are punishable by death. By common understanding we see that there are degrees of sin.

This also shows how it makes our God angry, detest these things, because God is Pure and Holy, He wants us to live Pure and Holy.  We endeavor to this end. When you fall get back up! We are in need of His Graces always!  

The Old testament is full of Gods Character and Personality.  We see Him angered, we see Him destroy, we see Him calling out to His people, we see Him not answering His people.  This shows us, "man" that God is serious!  He's not messing around. He's telling the Jews how to live or else! If you do this you will live and if not curses to you!  Why? Because man became his own god at the garden.(not the only reason)

Now with the Gospels Jesus does away with curses and brings in Mercy!  Saving Grace!  But for the lawless that is to say those who do not know the law are under the law showing them they need to be saved! Paul makes this very clear. Just as you said.

Moses if you recall, God called Him the Patriarch.  Moses was like God to Israel, Aaron became as Moses was mediator between Moses and Israel. Originally God told Moses to do His bidding, yet Moses said I cannot because I am not well versed.  Another words he was not good at talking, a way with words.  Like I get.  Thoughts are full yet words a few. God fills the mind! Wow!

Moses comes to Jesus in the Transfiguration along with Elijah.

You must be very conscience.  Have to relax.  You are on the right road. :)  Don't let others push you around.  Read, study and pray always.  The Best I tell you is to pray to the Virgin always.  She brought Jesus to the world, she always brings Jesus to us.  She is kind, gentle, sweet, holy, pure, full of great wisdom.  Consecrate yourself to Her Immaculate Heart.  She protects us by Her Mantle.

If you doubt, that comes from the other side.  Rebuke it.  If your thoughts are clouded when you pray, rebuke the thoughts, they are from the other side.  Our feelings are open to discussion. 

One prayer I really recommend is the Divine Mercy Novena. It consists of praying for 9 days.  Each day you offer up a certain group of souls.  This helps you to get your mind off of you and your problems as it helped me.   I still do this everyday.  Remember me always, I was left with nothing.  I struggle daily,  Then I realized the otherside is wanting me to stay captive to my past and feelings they bring.  This keeps one from seeing the light.  It's called darkness.  Today I have a new thought, I don't have time for the Poisons of the Devil.  Prayer brings Graces! The more we pray the more our soul grows and strengthens.  The prayers themselves have answers when we read them thoughtfully.  Everything such as prayers, all the things that are given by God through the saints and faithful have answers only if we read them with thoughtfulness.  Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word the comes from the mouth of God.

The Word of God has come to us through the Eucharist and through the written word.  It is then dispersed into many other forms through the Holy Spirit.  These are spiritual things. 

Summary of what makes us perfect before God a humble and contrite heart, sorrowful, obedience, giving heart.  Virtues grow other virtues.  The world brings illusions, remember Jesus told us very clearly that the Prince of this world is Satan.  Satan keeps those in his illusions.  We who have lived in the world must realize the illusions we have lived under and renounce and rebuke them they are Satans tools.  Eve was captivated by the Serpents illusion. This gets into another topic.

God bless.

Just some casual number crunching. 

Assuming we have about 10 or 11 million undocumented Mexican working here, what difference would it have made if the 40 million babies aborted since 1973 had been allowed to be born?

Assuming a 10 percent infant mortality; 4 million would have died before age 5 (40 million minus 4 million leaves 36,000,000 children).

Taking usual childhood illnesses and accidents into account would probably account for another 10% dying before reaching adulthood = 4 million (this leaves 32,000,000 that survived to adulthood).

Assuming they all go to high school (which might not be the case), and that 20% go on to college:

College = 32000000 - 6,400,000 = 25,000000

Assume of those who only went to high school, another 20% went to trade school:

Trade School = 25,000,000 - 5,120,000 - 19,880,000

Assuming of those who did not go to college or trade school, half got jobs in field other than southwestern agriculture, building construction, or midwestern slaughterhouses:

19,880,000 / 2 = 9,940,000 people

Which almost covers the jobs that the 10 or 11 million undocumented folks are doing each year.

Interesting . . . and thanks for bearing with me, my assumptions, and the tedious, none-too-scientific example.

I'm just thinking.  If you are in another country and give money to someone to get you to America appropriately, when they come back and tell you to what to do, how do you know (other than the obvious hiding in a truck or something) if you are doing it legally? 

For those of us who live in the USA:

Do you actually know if your forebears who immigrated here from some other country had a visa? 

If they didn't, why not? Maybe it wasn't required long ago.

If they did, how did they know to get one? 

And how did they (and how do we) know it was on the up-and-up?

And so, how can I go around judging other people about this?