Kenb,

I agree with you, here's the "but" things change in the superficial and artificial realm.
America "was" predominantly a Christian nation. At the moment this nation is all kinds of ideals and religions. The constitution is stepped on by lawyers, they removed prayer from schools, they removed the 10 commandments from the courts, list goes on and on. One more thing, the Supreme court swearing in is most likely going be including Muslim "Koran" rites if you're a Muslim. What next?

The Flag may have all the other nations on it? Lets try to spell the new name: Amexicandeuropanasian. Some funny looking flag I might add.

The new money which is going to be in circulation, no longer bears the inscription/stamp: IN GOD WE TRUST. 

The old saying goes send the "rejects" of their nations to bring America down. Though they are not rejects, it is how the unbelieving pass on their ideas or preconceived notions.

I agree that we do not "have" to do anything about this whole issue.  We certainly do not “owe” Mexico anything.  Indeed the moronic Mexican government and ruling class are largely to blame for this problem.  However in my opinion this is not about what we "have" to do; it is about what we "should" do.

We Americans are far and away the most decent, friendly, and tolerant people on this earth. We treat immigrants from all lands better than any other nation on the planet.  This is a wonderful part of our national character.  Another great characteristic for which we are justifiably known is our sense of fair play.

For the last twenty years (since the 1986 amnesty), many Americans - not just big hotel chains and Argri-business outfits, but many average Americans - have basically given these illegal workers a wink and a nod, and have hired them to pick crops, slaughter beef, mow yards, clean house, paint our houses, care for kids, etc..  Every American that did this knew very well at the time that the person they were dealing with was technically illegal.

What were these Mexicans supposed to think?  All of them arrive poor, and most have no more than a forth grade education.  Most of them are however, quite trusting, hard working, Christian (most are Roman Catholic), and decent.  Obviously we wanted them here; we paid them well (compared to what they were used to), and we were friendly toward them.  We Americans basically gave them the impression they were welcome and that ultimately whatever problems they had with their work status would be resolved in future. Meanwhile - we implied by our actions - if they just worked hard enough, they could trust that we (the Americans) would make things Ok.  They counted on us.

Now, twenty years on, after their having worked very hard, all the while trusting that we would somehow "make it right", and after many or them have bought homes and land, and have kids growing up here and all the other things that come normally with living life, now we are considering simply rounding up all these folks and hauling them back to Juarez or whatever other Mexican hell-hole they came from, and telling them that next time they should follow the rules.

I do not think that is the type of people we are.  I think we are better than that. We are a Christian nation after all.

We are not they type of people who would be proud of ourselves for having snookered some of the poorest folks in the western hemisphere into working ten or twenty years at low pay with the implied possibility of a better life, only to toss them out like yesterday's newspaper.  Moreover, we owe it to ourselves not to become that sort of people.  No - we are much better than that. 

The way I see it, the hauling and walling approach has several problems:

1) There are huge logistical, practical problems rounding up and hauling away this many people.

2) Because images of the roundup would no doubt be broadcast worldwide, there would be incredible national and international public relations problems.

3) As frustrating as the Mexican government is, and as moronic as it can sometimes be, since they are our immediate neighbor, we do need to maintain some sort of decent international relationship with Mexico.

4) Last but not least, while the law is the law, there are large moral issues in play that involve basic Christian mercy & decency, the dignity of man, our notions of justice and fair play, and the breakup of families. 

Because of all this, I think we should: 

1 - Legalize the Mexican indocumentados.

2 - Deport any foreign criminals that are currently sitting in our jails. We can work out arrangements with the various home countries to properly incarcerate them at home.

3 - Deport any non-Mexican indocumentados. This would be relatively straightforward since most of the undocumented folks here are Mexicans. Still, it would probably reduce the number of illegal workers we have to deal with by a million or so. While because they are our immediate neighbors, I think it is in our interest to legalize Mexican workers, we are under no such obligation to grant this sort of special deal to people from lands more distant.

4 - Slap a heavy entry fee (perhaps $5000) on Mexican politicians, and business people who travel to and from the US. Since, because of how they have failed to properly run their own country, these more affluent Mexicans bear heavy blame for most of this problem, we should force at least some of them (i.e. those who travel here) to help foot the bill.

5 - Revive some updated version of the Barcero program and set aside the plans to build a Wall of Amerika. The idea of a national wall simply seems too German for me. 

Like our local priest said; maybe if we had not spent the last 30+ years aborting over 40 million babies, we would have someone to pick the crops. 

For the record, I am a lifelong Republican.  Reagan was the first president for whom I could vote, and I voted for George W. Bush both times.  I understand some conservatives feel strongly about this, but I think they are wrong.  Also, I honestly think that conservatives are reasonable and that appealing to peoples' better instincts is more likely to get them to rationally consider the matter than all the strong words and wild accusations that have been flying around recently.

We all want what is best for America. Sometimes what is best entails more than just money. Sometimes that which is in the best interest of the nation involves our striving to live up to our own higher ideals, our sense of Christian decency, and our sense of fair play. It is not always only about the money. 

Thanks for your time; please let me know what you think. 

I have a , perhapse, niave question:

Why are the barriers so high for entry into the united states? Wouldn't it be reasonable to just let anyone who is not a criminal and wants to migrate to the united states? That was a winning stratagy for over a century.

Poetry,

You say: "If you are poor the law does not apply to you?"

Yes, laws always apply to people.  But, when you are poor you are more likely to get caught stealing bread than something else.

From a different perspective I can say that we are teaching employers that hiring illeagle aliens is a great way to increase your profit margin and keep overall prices down.  That is what we have taught our Enron-moral businesses.  If we would apply the existing laws against employers, as well as the aliens, then there would not need to be a discussion.  The laws would work.

But we do not apply these laws to employers because the businesses who employ illeagles pay a large chunk of taxes to the towns, states and national governments.  The governments do not want to go after businesses because that is where the money comes from.  They don't want to chase businesses out of their town/state/country.  So, they look the other way and only go after the aliens.  And when they go after just the aliens, the root of the problems still flourishes.  Another illeagle alien steps in to do the work a few days or weeks later.

If you really want to stop the illeagle alien problem, please talk to the people who hire illeagles.  Otherwise, you are just making the alien's life harder and get no where.  They will continue to come if there is an opportunity.  And what do we call this place ... the Land of Opportunity.

And no Politician, who wants to be elected ever again, is going to go after businesses unless there is an outcry from the voters.  And as is easy to see, it is easy to hate illeagle aliens and hard to hate businesses.  It is easy to see that low prices makes everyone happy and business people know that.  So, we have a recipe to hide this problem and wait.

They have no jobs in Mexico.  If we stop the jobs here, rather than trying to stop each and every individual along the long border, the problem will diminish significantly.  We can stop them by going after the employers who employ illeagles.  Once they see that hiring illeagles will hurt, eventhough it is already illeagle ... they will stop.  Until then, all is just a show.  Agreed?

GK - God is good!

I still think it is best if we are true to ourselves and to our better natures.  I realize the circumstances are very different, but nonetheless, I like Lincoln's reply when asked if "God is on our side" that it is less important that God is on our side, and more important that we are on His side.

These indocumentados (mostly Mexicans, but others as well) did not hire themselves a job; an American hired each and every one of them.  And big business is not the only offender; many average Americans hire illegal workers to paint, do yardwork, tend children, or for small-medium home remodeling projects.  Since this sort of Americans brought all this on by hiring these (mostly) Mexican folks since the last amnesty (1986), it only seems reasonable that we settle this in a decent manner, with Christian charity and calm, bearing in mind the value of family and the dignity of man, and that - I think - means we should grant amnesty (excepting of course, any criminals) to these workers.

This is not being "unfair" to those who are legally waiting in line.  This is resolving something that is our own business, the business of this nation and no one else's; it is an internal matter.  This is simply not the business of other foreigners waiting legally in line to enter this country.  For example, if someone from India has applied and is waiting to come to the US, their wait need not be longer than otherwise.  In any case, when it comes to immigration matters, we need Not be "fair" to all nations. 

This is our house and we have the right to determine who enters.  Now, when so many Americans hired so many Mexican illegal workers, that particular group of Americans more or less gave these illegals  a wink and a nod, basically an assurance that their immigration status was not important, and if they just worked hard enough for long enough, all would be well.  True, the group of Americans who did this over-stepped their authority by circumventing federal immigration laws regarding hiring, but as a practical matter, we are not going to prosecute them.  As a moral matter, in light of where we are now and how we got here, I think we should resolve the status of those Mexicans who are here illegally by granting them amnesty, not with full citizenship, but with legal status (e.g. permanent residency).  That would allow them to work and live, but they could not vote or hold office, and if they wanted to apply for full citizenship, they would need to get in line like everyone else.

In addition to granting this amnesty however, we need to make it clear to ALL Americans that we should ALL follow the law and that we should not hire indocumentados.  Charity begins at home and we Americans should not be so greedy and/or selfish as to willing undercut our fellow American just to get a job done cheaper by illegal workers.  We should make it clear that if you see your neighbor having his house painted or lawn mowed by a crew of Mexican workers, that it is Not rude or out of bounds to ask about their status.  We also need to begin being realistically firm but still friendly and honest with the government of Mexico, and tell them how and why we do not appreciate their pawning off their own problems on us like this.  We then should begin to constructively work with them toward those economic interests that we have in common.

I do not agree with building a "wall of America".  First of all because it would be a monstrosity, but also because it sets up future generations of Americans for entrapment.  Thankfully we now have a free republic, but we do not know that in a hundred years, maybe something awful will happen and somehow a dictator takes over and Americans might want to leave this land.  With "the wall" however, all the leader would have to do is tell the soldiers manning the wall to turn around and point their rifles north instead of south.  Walling ourself off from our negihbors is not a good idea.

I think prayerful consideration of all that has happened and our part in it (i.e., our hiring of illegals), and thoughtful consideration of what is correct in God's eyes, and what is in the best interest of the character of this great nation, and humbly and prayerfully asking God's help (and also looking to Rome for advice) in deciding how to reasonably resolve this and move forward is the best way.

I for one am outraged that the church is actively entering the political arena in support of illegal aliens and in fact is coaching and supporting the breaking of the law simply because they are “mostly” Catholics. We now have priests standing up at the pulpit demanding parishioners come out to protest and pray against municipalities that are actively trying to take back their cities with laws requiring at least the cities to disallow employment of city workers who are illegal aliens. That just happened recently in my area where the city was forced to back down to the pressure from the combined efforts of the Hispanic community (many who refuse to speak English) and an ecumenical gathering of churches who are all smacking their lips at the notion of swelled pews of new faithful. The church is just wrong on this one! I note that extorted and forced charity is not charity and has NO basis in Christian teaching.  It is not right to use a Robin Hood sort of morality of stealing the heritage and economic future of hard working Americans and subjecting them to crime and murder to be chaitable to a "have-not" mob of forreigners who can not rise up in their own country to solve its own problems. They would rather walk into our country proudly waving foreign flags in our streets to protest "their rights" for "no free lunch without representation" - all on the backs of hard working Americans. Apparently given the capitulation to the invasion in many large cities with "don't ask" laws and ordinances it seems they have insider sympathy from some officials who have betrayed our nation to pander to this insanity. 

I can admire that you admit we have a problem Ken - but I am not in favor of any sort of amnesty. A lot of these problems were not bi-directionally causal as you suggest. The pro-Hispanic and I think mostly democratic party (licking their chops at taking over more large city blocks of voters) is behind this. Look at my example above of #16 of all the cities that have rolled over and opened the doors to WHOLESCALE INVASION wither new ordinances FAVORABLE to ILLEGALS! I'll re-list them here: Washington, D.C., New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Detroit, Jersey City, Minneapolis, Miami, Denver, Aurora, Colorado, Baltimore, Seattle, Portland, Oregon and Portland, Main).

I say to immediately put in place new constitutional amendments specifically disallowing equal protection under the law for those who are hiding criminally behind the law as well as make it impossible to become a US citizen simply by illegally coming to the country and having one's foreign baby here! This is absurd what is goin gon They are anchoring themselves here with babies and getting social security and educational benefits and bankrupting the country's future.

If Mexico does not start cooperating in this I say we turn around and go right at them and start annexing their territories further and further south as reparations. Create a new homeland for the people Mexico wants to dump on the US as a new human bomb and invasion force just like Castro did when he cleared his prisons and mental hospitals with the liberatad flotilla/invasion. What a disgrace.

If we want to get into what caused all this all we have to do is look at Mexico withdrawing its subsidies for agriculture and NAFTA which had the effect of lowering the working class labor rate to the point where it was impossible to live. These people are desperate and rally have not choice but to flee. The should be viewed as refugees but NOT citizens!

TJ

GK no one here is talking about stoning anyone to death. What is being proposed it having illegals go back home and following the legal process to stand in line to wait their turn behind all the hundreds of thousands of other foreigners who want to come live and work in the USA. We are a country of laws and order - if we let it degrade to anarchy and a mob rule mentality we will lose what differentiates us from all the other impoverished nations on the planet. Of course that might solve the problem of illegal immigration - but it would leave precious few remaining places for ANYONE to take refuge and live in relative peace and civilized lifestyle.

Let's turn your misapplied scripture phrase into something that actually applies and makes some contextual sense:

'Let he who is without a green-card be the first to labor with his stones to build the wall that prevents illegal acts and as a just labor and reparation for cheating all the lawful refugees from being cheated out of their turn for lawful entry.

If nothing else at least they could have the beginnings of US government subsidized housing on the north wall side to construct a lean-to structure on. That's better than being unemployed and dieing in the dessert...

TJ

Thanks for the compliment TJ, and I in turn admire that you are willing to spend time on this issue.  You are correct in that we do have a problem, and that politicos of all stripes are salivating at the possibility of votes.  I am Republican, but as a union man, I do think some greedy business types have all to happily jumped onto the idea of hiring illegal workers, and I think the national Republican party worries too much about attracting the Latino vote.  I think we conservatives do best by simply explaining our notions of why conservative ideas are better for this nation than liberalism is.  Latinos have brains and if we simply explain our conservative positions, if they like our ideas - and I think most Layinos do - they will come along.  I also must add that while it is easy to do so, it is not fair to simply blame "big business", a nameless, faceless entity for this entire problem, nor is it correct to think of illegal immigrants as a nameless, faceless monolithic group.

This is a problem mainly having to do with individuals; the individual Mexican workers (i.e., the majority of the illegal workers are Mexican), and the  individual Americans who hired them and somehow, albeit wrongly, gave the Mexicans the idea that if they just worked hard enough and long enough, their legal status would be resolved.  Now, it is very true the main problem lies inside Mexico and the pathetic government and society down there that leaves (indeed keeps) their poorest people desparate and looking Northward, but the fact of the matter is we can do very little to change Mexico.  We can however change our reactions, and we should make it clear to all Americans how bad it is to undercut our own nation by hiring illegal Mexicans, and how cruelly dishonest it is for any American who by Mexican standards has everything, to give the uneducated poverty stricken Mexican the wrong idea about how he can improve his life, just so the American can get a bargain on remodeling his house or having his children tended.

Obviously Mexicans should be more responsible, but we also should have been and need to be more responsible.  Ultimately, we can only change ourselves.  Again I agree with our local priest who pointed out that if we had not allowed some 40 million babies to be murdered via abortion since the 70's, we would have enough people to pick the crops and do these jobs.  Moreover if we had been honest with ourselves and with our neighbors to the south, we would not be in the fix in which we now find oursleves.

However now is now and it seems to me the two main questions are still A) What to do with all the illegal workers we have already hired and B) How can we best avoid this same situation in years ahead?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying:

A) Send all of them back and

B) Punish big business.

I say:

A) Send all non-Mexicans illegals, and any indocumentados who are currently sitting in our jails back to their home countries immediately and grant permanent resident status (not citizenship) to illegal Mexican workers already here and

B) Make it clear both to businesses and to individual Americans exactly why and how hiring hiring illegal workers is both bad for the nation (i.e. unpatriotic), and cruelly dishonest and heartless to the Mexicans involved.

I think you and I basically agree on the answer to question B, but that we are a ways apart on answer to question A.

Perhaps if we further mandated that while we would grant permanent resident (i.e., non-voting rights or office-holding status) to illegal Mexicans who are already here, that because of how they got here, they could never have citezenship.  Obviously their kids would be citizens, but they themselves would never be able be a citizen; could never vote or hold office.  Would you agree to this sort of compromise?

Thanks for your time.

Obviously Bhokuto, technology can assistmatters, but it is not the entire answer; people are not machines and are not to be treated as Pavlov's dog. 

I think it is better if people know right from wrong.

I think it is better if we understand how and why this happened and if we made the effort to actually get Americans to understand why they should not hire an illegal worker; that it is wrong to sell out their own nation and it is cruel to give Mexicans such false hope.

We all need to understand honesty is always best.  We should be honest with our own countrymen, and we should be honest with our Mexican neighbors and we should not offer false hope or fool's gold to anyone.

TJ, I still would like to hear more of your thoughts on this matter.

Pax