Catholic Exchange Forums » Politics

How to End Abortion, TODAY!

(12 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by greenknight
  • Latest reply from greenknight

greenknight - Inactive
I here all this talk about ending legalized abortion. Well, according to the Constitution, it already is. The 14th Amendment says that you can't deny someone of life, liberty, or property without due proccess of law. Basicly, unless you can convict that unborn child of a capital crime in the court of law, you can't kill him. We still have a chance with our supposedly Pro-Life prisident. We in the Pro-Life community need to pressure him to do his Constitutuional duty by enforcing the 14th Amendment and stoping the murder of innocent children. We more than ever in the Pro-Life movement need to take not just the moral, but the legal high ground as well. Pro-Abortionists need to be shown for what they really are, law breakers. We need to be agressive in the '07 election year, and call evil by its name.
Posted 1 year ago #
Annie 41 - Inactive
I might be remembering it wrong but wasn't the 14th Amendment used to argue FOR abortion in Roe vs Wade where the Supreme Court decided that "person" as used in the Amendment did not include the unborn?
Posted 1 year ago #
Ederico - Inactive
I'm not an expert on the US Constitution, but I happen to study Law & Theology at the University of Malta. Unfortunately, strangely enough, legal doctrine seems to presume that a "person" in legal terms is created upon birth. This is an unfortunate legacy of legal notions materialised in times when abortion wasn't a public recurring question and when it societies were more religious and thus saw in abortion a most heinous crime and scandal contrary to Christian ethics. What is needed, in Malta and given the Roe versus Wade decision also in the US, is the legal redefinition of person which is parallel to a proper understanding of life. You see, the fact that for example due to formalities such as birth certificates, people don't even exist for the State is something that should be changed in order to fix the legal incoherences. Moreover, Constitutions should provide that life is a process that should never be terminated by human intervention apart from exceptional circumstances when the killed person broughts it upon himself (case in point, combat in battle, street aggression et cetera) inevitably. Life is a process is an essential notion. For the process is initiated objectively speaking at the moment of fertilization or conception (I do not have the medical knowledge to discern between the two, sorry, I mean the moment of fertilization most probably) and this cannot be denied. With fertilization there can never be birth, but without birth there still is fertilization in the case of abortion. Abortion terminates that process that life should be considered as legally speaking, and that termination should be deemed unlawful as it is contrary to the fundamental right to life which is terminated by human intervention against an innocent party (the unborn). This would be in line with natural law ethics, the fundamental and rational guiding light of Catholic ethics and the source of all notions of "fundamental rights". However, as I said, certain positive law and bureacratic notions must be changed. Pregnancies would have to be tracked to avoid clandestine abortions, they would have to be registered, the conceived but unborn should be registered in order for the State TO KNOW of their EXISTENCE and relative rights (primarily to LIFE). For me it is obscene, that the unborn have succession rights, while they wouldn't have the right to life because supposedly they are not persons legally speaking. Oh well, I've never seen those pro-abortionists campaign against the succession rights of the unborn, which clearly indicate a legal personality as a natural person in that sphere, while through sophistries they pretend that the unborn are not persons legally speaking. This is the situation in Malta at least, but it is so in most countries of the Western World. Positive law must be brought in line with natural law, otherwise through relativist ethics man can legislate in favour of any abomination. Case in point, having the same philosophical basis, the Nazis enacted laws effectively and licitly through legal methods pertaining to their regime. That was obviously because they did not recognised rational natural law ethics and only adhered to mere political will and suppost. Those same laws allowed for immense persecutions, yet according to a conception of law independent from natural law ethics, it was all valid and relatively licit. I'm saying this to draw a real analogy. The Nazis murdered millions, but strangely enough many more millions are murdered today through abortion, yet it is as if all is fine and dandy and just a question of "choice". Instead of concentration camps and "arbeit macht frei" (work liberates), we now have abortion clinics and women's "rights" as a prerogative of freedom. The end result is identical, the murder of innocent human life by the millions.
Posted 1 year ago #
Brian0306 - Inactive
One way to end this scourge on our wonderful country is to work on the all the Catholic politicians currently in office, who hold that while they personally oppose abortion they cannot enforce their beliefs on others. If we could get them to vote their beliefs to which they ascribe, we could blow abortion and euthanasia off the face of our country's map. In my mind, your life is all about your beliefs. If you truly believe in Jesus Christ and all that so bravely stood for, and cannot stand up for Him and His bride, the Church, well ....there isn't much use for your beliefs, because you're already on extremely shaky ground with the Almighty. I mean if you cannot stand up for the least of Christ's brothers (and sisters) that is, the unborn and infirmed, you cannot expect His mercy. These people cannot expect Christ's understanding and mercy when they are not willing to accept His teaching and direction. They are not ignorant of Christ and yet, they are very well educated. My question is, what rock will they hide behind when our Lord asks them to account for their time on this mortal plain? In my mind and in so many ways, going to Church on Sunday and receiving Communion, for these lost people, is nothing more significant than going onto the porch or driveway to fetch the morning paper. It's just what you do on a Sunday, when you're not traveling or have something better to do. It becomes akin to a political gesture, as in, "See I'm Catholic just like you, so vote for me (although I support the murder of the unborn, and want to rid the world of those who don't have any meaning to the intellectual elite of the liberal side of this world.) If we lean on and, I truly mean lean on, our church leaders to withhold what is to us the most important moment of any week for any true Catholic, that is the Body of Christ, we may be able to compel these Judases to stand by the teachings of the Church. I just read where this congressman (on the Life News Site), by the name of Brian Higgins, from the Buffalo (NY) area who has been apparently staunchly pro-choice was called to task by a courageous deacon in his parish during a mass that Higgins and his family happened to be attending. Higgins, and his family, left in a very public huff at this dressing down. Naturally the pastor and ArchBishop of Buffalo are falling all over each other to make amends to this very public traitor to our faith and what of the deacon ? He's being instructed to apologize to Higgins. We need to corral our Catholic politicians who want their cake and eat it too at the very expense of innocent human life. We have to lean on our Catholic leadership to be real men and stand up for our the teachings and leadership of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Anything less is indeed cowardice and betrayal to Christ. Sorry to be soooooo one sided but we are losing our world to Satan through our very own brethren. For their souls and ours we need to step up to the plate and be ready to swing. Walks won't work in this game.
Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
"You cannot legislate morality" need not be understood only as a proscription even though it is often stated as such by promoters of whatever is the current fad in immorality. It is also an observation about human nature, and especially so in countries with democratic institutions that respect individual freedoms. To eliminate abortion the individual heart must be converted to life. That is a task to be achieved by life lived in witness to God and prayer. Nevertheless, in countries where Sharia (sp?) law is enforced, abortion seems to be at least very rare.
Regards,
Old Sigma
PS for CE Technical Support: The navigation options (1 2 Next, etc) for a long thread need to appear at the top of the thread as well as at the bottom.
Posted 1 year ago #
greenknight - Inactive

Yes, the word "Liberty" in the 14th Amendment was used to justify abortion. 

 

However, "Liberty" does not give one the right to kill any more than the right to steal, lie, cheat, and so forth.  In fact, the violation of another person's rights can loose you your rights.  Example, violation of someone's property rights (stealing) can loose you your liberty rights (jail).  Violating one's liberty rights (rape) can loose you your life rights (death penalty). 

 

So, what is abortion, practical genocide, worthy of? 

 

The legal fact is, even if abortion is protected under the word "Liberty," "Life" trumps it.

 

Yes, the 14th Amendment says all persons BORN in the US are citizens, however, it never restricts the word "person" to "birth."  All it practically means is, if you don't want your child a US citizen, you have nine months (idealy) to leave.  The 14th Amendment, in fact, implies by its very wording that the term "person" must be interprited broadly.  Our founding fathers would agree that it was never ment to be interprited as "anglo-saxon males between the ages of 21 and 65." 

 

Besides, even if you could somehow prove the Constitution to even posses a single loophole as to allow abortion (which I assure you doesn't exist), Natural Law would nullify it. 

Posted 1 year ago #
pouliot - Member
Based on the date/time stamp and the absence of intervening posts, I presume the post by the GreenKnight wherein the follwoing quoted text is found, was in response to my earlier one wherein I introduced the notion of individual liberty in societies committed to the fullest range of democratic principles:
"Yes, the word "Liberty" in the 14th Amendment was used to justify abortion."
My original post was not so much an attempt to explain the jurisprudence (false, I too believe, but for other reasons) that was used to overturn the regulation of abortion by individual states in the United States. What I was trying to point out is that a law prohibiting abortion cannot exist alongside a tradition of respect of individual freedom and religious pluralism because the pro-abortion mentality will always be able to deny the scientific facts and allege that the unborn child is not a person. Likewise clarifying the Constitution of the United States to extend personhood to the unborn would likely not be any more successful. All these approaches are fundamentally human-based. I think the problem is so deeply rooted in the culture of the world (with few exceptions) that the matter must be turned over the God.
Regards,
Old Sigma
PS for CE Technical Support: Thank you for adding the navigation options (1 2 Next, etc) for a long thread at the top of the thread.
Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member

I think daily prayer will do more to end this abomination than anything else.  Just as we used to pray the Rosary for the conversion of Russia, we should pray (the Rosary and/or the Divine Mercy Chaplet) for the end of abortion, and moreover; that God will help us build a "culture of life"; a more gentle world in which the young, the old, and the infirm alike, are all treaty with dignity befitting their God-created natures.  A society is correctly judged by how it treats its weakest members, and there is no doubt we have been found wanting.

 That having been said, we should also use; politics (peace movements, labor movements, other social reform groups), and religious & cultural alliances (i.e.; work with Greek Orthodox, like-minded Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and the Buddhists.  On the cultural side; work with and through Mexicans, Vietnamese, Italian, Ukranian, Irish, Ethiopian, and other Catholic immigrant groups, etc.), and the media (e.g., EWTN and other religious networks) and finally, we need to educuate of our children as best we can to achieve this goal. 

I personally think that after prayer, educating our children on this is most important.  If we teach our children so they understand that we are all creatures of God, and that while it is important to be nice to animals, any human being is infinitely more valuable than a dog or a mouse, and that at all times Christian charity, love and kindness should prevail, this will be more effective than any senator blathering on all day in Washington.

Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member

And I forgot to add that regardless of your party affiliation; ALWAYS vote for Pro-Life candidates, and ALWAYS vote against the (so-called) pro-Choice candidates. 

I do this all the time.  I know sometimes my economic interests lie with a particular pro-Choice candidate (I am a union man) but more importantly, I do not want to have to answer to God when I die just why it was that I voted to perpetuate this sort of awful thing.  Believe me, I will have plenty of other things to answer for!

Even though politicians are boring and they blather on day in and day out, it would be better if at least they were Pro-Life Smile

Posted 1 year ago #
needasaint - Inactive

Jesus said you will always have the poor among you.  Those poor unborn children!

I'm afraid it will only get worse.  But look with your spiritual eyes and see the redemption of those poor unborn children!  God is with the child! He is the defender of the Child! the helpless, the stranger, the cast out, the rejected!  Look to God for such is the kingdom of God. 

The laws of this country has some serious loopholes as we have seen and bear witness to, but it was created thus. Thus we know that it was not God who created these laws.  If it was He, He would have stood by them.  Thus He only created the Laws given unto Moses.  Now what am I saying?  Paul says that all authority is granted by God, not all authority repects and uses Gods exact perfect laws.  Thus we shall know them by their fruit!  So the faithful are not at fault. Instead the Faithful are called to Pray and make known the commandments given to Moses, so that God can see who is for life and who is not, exposing evil. ( God looks at the Heart )  Judgement is reserved for God who is the only Judge.  Let us walk with boldness to a hidden life allowing the fruit of evil to be exposed so those who hear the Lamb of God can see with their hearts and come to Faith.  (noisy gongs are useless) [1 Cor 13] The enemy wants to rile us to anger, God is the Avenger. Be angry and sin not, let not the sun go down on your anger.

Amen.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Power and Might, Heaven and earth are full of your Glory!

Hosanna in the Highest!

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . Frankly, if all pro-life people just bonded together in their alleged pro-life convictions - and, even among church-going Catholics, I don't see that happening any time soon - the voting bloc would dominate more than either party. Catholicism alone as a voting bloc would decide any and all elections. Catholicism plus evangelicalism would rule the nation. When I see voting results, I see 'agnostic' written all over them. Remember, I love you, too Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
greenknight - Inactive

pouliot

 

I'm affraid you assumed wrong.  My last post was not it response to you, but Annie41 and Ederico (whom is a higher authority on that law stuff anyway, since he actually studied law at a university). 

 

I am affraid, though, that the idea that the Pro-Life cause is incompattible with the principle of religious freedom is false.  The Church clearly stands for religious freedom.  You can't force religion, or at least, Christianity, on anyone.  Christ requires an actual conversion of heart.  The idea of a forced Christanity is oxymoranic.  Logicaly, it can't exist. 

 

Morality does, however, imply a God and requires a belief in the existence of God.  This simply requires teaching sound philosophy, that's all.

 

Education and forced worship are two different things.  You can convince someone that there is a God, but that doesn't mean he'll worship and adore Him.  Logic and Love are two completely different things.  

Posted 1 year ago #

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