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Reasonable Christians and Reasonable Mulsims

(10 posts)

KenB - Member

I just finished reading Dinesh D'Souza's new book, "The Enemy at Home" in which he makes several interesting points about the far-left in America and the sort of culture they have helped to foster here, and export worldwide.

I think he makes good sense, and pasted part of the introduction below.  I know it is long, but the writing style makes it a fairly easy read.  Please have a look, and let me know if you think he has a point, or if you think he is way off-base.

Thanks - KB

-------------------

THE ENEMY AT HOME:  by Dinesh D'Souza

" In this book I make a claim that will seem startling at the outset.   The cultural left in this country (such people as Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, George Soros, Michael Moore, Bill Moyers, and Noam Chomsky) is responsible for causing 9/11.   The term “cultural left” does not refer to the Democratic Party.  Nor does it refer to all liberals.  It refers to the left wing of the Democratic Party—admittedly the most energetic group among Democrats, and the main source of the party’s ideas.   The cultural left also includes a few Republicans, notably those who adopt a left-wing stance on foreign policy and social issues.  Moreover, the cultural left includes organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Organization for Women, People for the American Way, Planned Parenthood, Human Rights Watch, and moveon.org.       In faulting the cultural left, I am not making the absurd accusation that this group blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.  I am saying that the cultural left and its allies in Congress, the media, Hollywood, the nonprofit sector and the universities are the primary cause of the volcano of anger toward America that is erupting from the Islamic world.   The Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks were the product of this visceral rage—some of it based on legitimate concerns, some of it based on wrongful prejudice—but all of it fueled and encouraged by the cultural left.  Thus without the cultural left, 9/11 would not have happened.     I realize that this is a strong charge, one that no one has made before.   But it is a completely neglected aspect of the 9/11 debate, and it is critical to understanding the current debate over the war against terrorism.  Here in America, the political right routinely accuses the left of being weak in its response to Islamic terrorism.   For example, conservatives often allege that the left’s desire to “understand” the roots of Islamic discontent dilutes American resolve in fighting the enemy.   If this is true, then fortifying the left’s resolve becomes the obvious solution.   My argument is quite different.   It is that the left is the primary reason for Islamic anti-Americanism as well as the anti-Americanism of other traditional cultures around the world.   I intend to show that the left has actively fostered the intense hatred of America that has led to murderous attacks such as 9/11.   If I am right, then no war against terrorism can be effectively fought using the left-wing premises that are now accepted doctrine among mainstream liberals and Democrats.

     The left is responsible for 9/11 in the following ways.   First, the cultural left has fostered a decadent American culture that angers and repulses traditional societies, especially those in the Islamic world, that are being overwhelmed with this culture.   In addition, the left is waging an aggressive global campaign to undermine the traditional patriarchal family and to promote secular values in non-Western cultures.   This campaign has provoked a violent reaction from Muslims who believe that their most cherished beliefs and institutions are under assault.  Further, the cultural left has routinely affirmed the most vicious prejudices about American foreign policy held by radical factions in the Muslim world, and then it has emboldened those factions to attack the United States with the firm conviction that “America deserves it” and that they can do so with relative impunity.   Absent these conditions, Osama Bin Laden would never have contemplated the 9/11 attacks, nor would the United States today be the target of Islamic radicals throughout the world.  Thus when leading figures on the left say, “We made them do this to us,” in a sense they are correct.  They are not correct that “America” is to blame.  But their statement is true in that their actions and their America are responsible for fostering Islamic anti-Americanism in general and 9/11 in particular...."

"... We should not dismiss the Islamic or traditional critique so easily.   In fact, as our own domestic and cultural debate shows, we know that many of the concerns raised by the radical Muslims are widely-shared in our own society.   Indeed, many conservative and religious Americans agree with the Islamic fundamentalists that American culture has become increasingly vulgar, trivial and disgusting.  I am not merely referring to the reality shows where contestants eat maggots or the talk shows where guests reveal the humiliating details of their sex lives.  I am also referring to “high culture,” to liberal culture that offers itself as refined and sophisticated.        Here, for example, is a brief excerpt from Eve Ensler’s “The Vagina Monologues,” a play that won rave reviews and Hollywood accolades and is now routinely performed (according to its own publicity materials) in “more than 20 countries, including China and Turkey.”   In the book version of the play—now sold in translation in Pakistan, India, and Egypt—Ensler offers what she terms “Vagina Occurrences”:  “Glenn Close gets 2,500 people to stand up and chant the word xxxx…There is now a Cnnt Workshop at Wesleyan University…Roseanne performs ‘What Does Your Vagina Smell Like?” in her underwear for two thousand people…Alanis Morisette and Audra McDonald sing the ****** piece.”[xxx]  And so on.  If all of this makes many Americans uncomfortable and embarrassed—which may be part of Ensler’s objective—one can only imagine how it is received in traditional cultures where the public recitation of such themes and language is considered a grotesque violation of manners and morals.   Nor is Ensler an extreme example.   If the garbage heap of American excess leaves many Americans feeling dirty and defiled at home, what gives America the right to dump it on the rest of the world?..."

"......     Treason is not the problem.  To see what is, let us consider two revealing exhibits.  The first is a short article by a left-leaning writer, Kristine Holmgren, that appeared shortly after 9/11.  Holmgren wrote, “Even in my waking hours, I am afraid.”  Was she afraid of a second 9/11-style attack?  Not at all.   “Nor am I afraid of planes striking my home or my children dying in their beds.”  What, then, was the source of Holmgren’s trepidation?   “My fears are more practical,” she explained.   Here in America, Holmgren wrote, the forces of Christian fundamentalism are gaining strength.  They are threatening abortion rights and civil liberties.  “My local school district is so afraid of adolescent sexuality, drug use and music videos that they are willing to suspend civil rights to proselytize for Jesus Christ.”   Holmgren concludes on a grim note.  “Fascism crept upon post-World War I Europe with the same soft, calm footsteps it is using these days in the United States.”[v]  Here in clear view is the cultural left’s mindset.  Just two months after 9/11, with its memory still fresh in the national consciousness, Holmgren candidly confesses that she is less scared of Bin Laden than she is of Christian activists on her school board.  In her view Bin Laden might do episodic damage, but the Christians are on their way to establishing a fascist theocracy in America..."

Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member
Are there no opinions that anyone is willing to share regarding this?
Posted 1 year ago #
Protect the Rock - Moderator

I think D'Souza has some good points. Among what I found worthy of some thought are:

Terrorists share the position of politically conservative Amercians' position to be outraged and disgusted with much of the licentiousness of American pop-culture

They also share the position of politically liberal Americans' to blame the USA for much of the world's problems.

And they delight in seeing the USA respond to attacks by evil people on America by becoming increasingly divided and blaming each other.

PTR!

  My country, right or wrong, is like saying ‘my mother, drunk or sober’. -G.K. Chesterton
Posted 1 year ago #
lpioch - Moderator

My initial reaction was my own comparison of this "claim" to that of many Christians in error to date.

It is also "true" that if it had not been for the Jewish authorities, Jesus would not have been crucified.  But we all know that each and every one of us is responsible for the Passion and Death of Our Lord.

It is much easier to "blame" the liberal left than it is to recognize that it is each and every American - in one way or another - plays a part in how "powerful" the liberal left's influence is in our society and as viewed by the rest of the world.

Even if it can be scientifically proven that the liberal left is responsible for 9/11...what does that gain us?  The ability to sit on our laurels (if we are not among the liberal left) and point fingers?  Or does it draw us further to deepen our prayer and mortification for the good of our country.  If it draws us further to deepen our prayer and mortification for the good of our country, then why have we not done so already?  If we had - then maybe 9/11 would never have occurred.

 

Posted 1 year ago #
wljewell - Member
God loves you . Muslimism is natively fascistic. I don't care what any 'infidel' does, or does not, unless Muslimism culture-wide rejects its nature of totalitarian shar'ia, I can't see blaming any American - one or many or all - or any non-Muslims, for the 'call to jihad' to convert or kill any non-Muslim anywhere. Muslimism's lack of freedom is its own problem being foisted on non-Muslims. The worst of our elitist secular liberals has not gone out and beheaded anyone in the name of his ideology. No American uses his child as a dynamite carrier. Muslims need to change more than anyone else. Mr. Dinesh never gets around to mentioning that in his book. He ought to be ashamed, to be so willing to put down any American in the face of Muslimism's problems with freedom. Remember, I love you, too Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, Pristinus Sapienter (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or ... yahoo.com)
Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member

I agree with Protect-the-Rock in that the realization of the deep licentiousness that has taken hold of our national culture should cause each of us to examine our own role in things.  Your point is well taken lpioch, it seems hardly worthwhile to simply blame only one group; we all have a hand in our own culture.

Wljewel, if you read that intro (and certainly if you read the book), you will see that D'Souza makes a definite distinction between radical fundamentalist terrorist Muslim (i.e., the Islamo-fascist), and the reasonable, traditional Muslim.  The reasonable Muslim does not strap bombs to his children, nor does he behead people.  Finally, as a Reaganite, D'souza very much tends toward conservatism, and is definitely not part of any blame-America-first crowd.

It sounds like the author is building a bit on what the pope has been urging.  Last fall Benedict XVI gave us an example of how reasonable Christians should try to engage reasonable Muslims in honest, respectful dialogue, in an effort to discover those things we have socially, or culturally in common.  Again I am not talking about radical Muslims.  I am talking about the Muslim in your neighborhood or city whom you see and greet regularly, and while you know he is different, you also know he is a reasonable man.  I live in northern California, and we have many such folks.

Both reasonable Christians and reasonable Muslims are against abortion and the embryonic type of stem cell research; both are against euthanasia, both value modesty in dress and manner, and both very much do not want their children scandalized or otherwise debased.

In summary, other than the fact that we are both monotheistic, certainly we cannot agree with Muslims on very many things religious.  However culturally and socially, we might find we have more in common with them than we had previously thought.

Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member

All;

I forgot to say also, that I appreciate your posts.  Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts on this.

KB

Posted 1 year ago #
KenB - Member

On re-reading the part of the intro I posted Wljewel, I can see where you got the impression that D'Souza was not making the distinction between radical and reaosnable Muslims.  And so to clarify that point, here is another bit of the introduction:

"...   In placing the cultural left and the Islamic fundamentalists on the same side, I am not trying to score a partisan or even an ideological point.  In fact, if the political left and the Islamic fundamentalists are in the same foreign policy camp, then by the same token the political right and the Islamic fundamentalists are on the same wavelength on social issues.  To put it bluntly, the left is allied with some radical Muslims in opposition to American foreign policy, and the right is allied with an even larger group of Muslims in their opposition to American social and cultural depravity.   This is the essential new framework for understanding American foreign policy and American social issues.  I conclude by spelling out the implications of these alignments for American conservatives.

    In a way, conservatives are in the best position to understand why traditional cultures fear and hate America.  That’s because conservatives share many of the moral concerns of traditional people.  The right should not be deaf to complaints about the dissolution of religious and family ties, because it worries about those things in this country.  The right understands the implications of the erosion of traditional morality, because it has seen the consequences of that erosion in the United States. Thus the right can play an important mediating role in helping America and the traditional cultures of Asia, Africa and Latin America to understand each other better.

     But so far the right has kept its blinders on since 9/11.  The isolationist right labors under the illusion that America can retreat behind its borders and fight a one-front battle against the cultural left at home.  As a practical matter, this is foolish.  Islamic hatred of America will not go away if American troops come home because this hatred is not based on the presence of American troops abroad.  Hasty withdrawals from Afghanistan or Iraq will further embolden Bin Laden and his allies and make the United States less, not more, safe.  

     The right’s myopia, however, is not confined to the Buchanan and libertarian wings.  Mainstream conservatives (including the Bush administration) understand better the military need to take the war to the enemy, and also appreciate that there is a political battle to be fought against the left at home.  But most conservatives do not see how these two battles are related to each other.   Moreover, the Bush administration is wrong to see the war against Islamic radicalism as a purely military operation.    The military component is indispensable, but it is not sufficient to achieve victory.  The reason the war seems endless is that the ranks of the enemy continue to grow.   It is simply not possible to kill all the terrorists because the engine of Islamic rage is powerful enough to keep generating more of them.  The only way to win the war is to create a wedge between Islamic radicals and traditional Muslims, and to support traditional Islam against radical Islam.   

     To date, the Bush administration has made no serious attempt to articulate the moral case for American foreign policy to Muslims (or to anyone else).  Many conservatives compound the problem by defending American decadence against the foreigners who hate and fear it.   Shortly after 9/11, the Bush administration began consulting Hollywood executives and Madison Avenue executives to market “brand America” abroad.   To this day the administration persists with this foolishness.  Strangely enough what the administration is promoting is liberal solutions—separation of church and state, feminism and the idea of the working woman—together with the debased values of American popular culture.  Of course these “solutions” only compound the problem.  They further alienate traditional Muslims and push them toward the fundamentalist camp.  So the liberals are correct, in a sense, that U.S. policy is “creating more terrorists,” but not for the reasons they think.

     The Bush administration and the conservatives must stop promoting American popular culture because it is producing a blowback of Muslim rage.  With a few exceptions, the right should not bother to defend American movies, music, and television.  From the point of view of traditional values, they are indefensible.  Moreover, why should the right stand up for the left’s debased values?  Why should our people defend their America?  Rather, American conservatives should join the Muslims and others in condemning the global moral degeneracy that is produced by liberal values.

     American foreign policy should stand up for liberal values, but not for the liberal values associated with the cultural left.  Rather, it must work to promote classical liberal ideas abroad.   As conservatives, we should export our America.   That means introducing in places in Iraq the principles of self-government, majority rule, minority rights, free enterprise, and religious toleration.  But we must stop exporting the cultural left’s America.  That means we should stop insisting on radical secularism, stop promoting the feminist conception of the family, stop trying to promote abortion and “sex education,” and we should try and halt the export of the vulgar and corrupting elements of our popular culture.   When we cannot do these things, we should apologize to the rest of the world and make it clear that we too find a good deal in this culture to be embarrassing and disgusting.

     There is no “clash of civilizations” between Islam and the West.  But there are two clashes of civilizations that are shaping the world today.  The first is a clash between liberal and conservative values within America.  The second is a clash between traditional Islam and radical Islam, a clash within Islamic society.   So realize it or not, American conservatives are fighting a two-front war.  The first is a war against Islamic radicalism and fundamentalism.  The second is a political struggle against the left and its pernicious political and moral influence in America and around the globe.  My conclusion is that the two wars are intimately connected.  In fact, we cannot win the first war without also winning the second war."

Posted 1 year ago #
vytautas - Inactive

I already posted this in another thread, but it's more relevant here. 

 

I share your opinion on Iraq, but not so much on the reasons why Muslims hate US/the West. I don't believe the differences in popular culture and the alleged immorality of western lifestyle is the main reason. From my contry,  it is very popular for women to travel to Arab countries to provide sexual services to Arabs, wheter paid or unpaid. Beutiful blondes enjoy enormous "demand" there. Most of the girls who go there to work as prostitutes (often disguised as "fashion models"), are 13-17 years old.  Judging from what I've heard or read about Arabs in our media in that context, I do not believe they are at least  1 per cent more virtuaous, more pro-family, more pro-life than Europeans or Americans (official propoganda aside). And speaking of the western lifestyle, I've got an impression that it enjoys great popularity in the arab countries where it is not illegal. Our soldiers serving in Afghanistan have told me how immensely popular western musical records, souvenirs etc.  have become since they became legal there.

So despite the fact they may look at us as infidels or immoral people, that's not the reason they are going to hate us or terrorize us. Ok, so why do so many Muslims hate the US and the West in generall?

Three main reasons I can think of:

1) US/Western interference in world affairs with illicit use of force, such as Iraq invasion;

2) Unequivocal, unlimited support to Israel in its relations with Arabs. This applies to the US, not so much to western Europe

3) Lack of tolerance, democratic principles etc. among Arabs themselves. Too much self-righteousness, religious fanaticism. As demonstrated in their reactions to caricatures, etc.

I'm sure there may be more reasons. This list is by no means exhaustive.

Posted 1 year ago #

It is great to see a variety of opinions on this problem that we all face.

I do think D'Souza has a point.  I would love to see a change in our culture in general.  I would hope that we can stem the tide on embryonic stem cells, abort the choice of abortion without warrant and divorce the strange idea of "gay" "marriage".  If not, I pray that in general these ideas begin to decline in popularity in our culture.

We'd have more of a foot to stand on.  Is the Muslim plague due to sin in general?  Is God's justice here on earth, in the form of Islam?  Should we not question ourselves and our culture?

I think we should.  I think we should be reminded that we need to raise boys and girls who do not go with the cultural flow.  Along with prayer and fasting, I think it will turn the tide.

 

GK - God is good!

Posted 1 year ago #

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