O'Malley

Thank you for your post.

I printed it out and read it carefully.  I still cannot understand it.

Far was I reared from 'supernatural existensial'.

You may be correct, but I am perhaps too simple minded.

There arte other possibilities besides the three you mention.  The one I support is that man (a human)  is by nature good, but  passions incline a person  to evil. He is free and good. 

In the past I have argued this point.

Human nature did not change before, during or after the fall. Man was made by God and even after the fall humans remained humans.

As Robbie Burns said:

A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that.

Also you wrote:

If grace is natural... 

It is not it is supernatural.

PS You never told me if your branch of the  O'Malleys are related to the next President of the US, Mr O'Bama.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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There is no great leap to be made between concupiscence and the churches teaching on original sin , because the church has always taught that original sin is the cause of concupiscence.  The existance o f concupiscence and sin are evidence of the fact that human beings are not perfect but fallen.

As such thre is a great deal of theology about salvation , but the doctrine of orginal sin must remain intact because Christ died explicitly for the purpose of restoring God's covenant with the whole human race. Which is why scripture calls him the new adam. Christ promised that he himself was the cure for concupiscence. 

Anyone note that in the Gospel this morning Jesus chooses to explain His presence in the Old Testament by explaining scripture starting with the patriarch Moses and the prophets. Not Abraham, not Noah and certainly not Adam. If previous posts are valid shouldn't the resurrected Christ have revealed His position as the New Adam if in fact He wanted the connection made?

Correct, fishman.  Moses is attributed with writing the first five books of the Bible.

PTR,

While in the times of Jesus it would have been understood{presumably} that Moses wrote the Penteteuch, today, the Church and the world do not consider this to be accurate.

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

DTG,

Yes, I know we moderns have explained that away.

I wonder how Jesus fell for such foolishness.

PTR

Are you saying Moses wrote the Pentateuch?

If so, few scholars (if any) would agree with you at present.

David

You asked:

Second, did the Holy Spirit, the Helper who inspired all that is written in Sacred Scripture, not lend His words to St Paul as introduced in this thread?

The answer (in my opinion) is NO.  The Bible is the inspired word of God.  God inspired it, He did not dictate it, or any specifc words in it.

God bless,


NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________

Jesus knew{knows} that Moses was/is a prophet. A man set apart by God-with Jesus-, and one who was held in the highest esteem among the Israelites, et al. Cleopas and his companion could not "see" the prophecy concerning Jesus{the Messiah} Lk 24:14-15,19-24. They expected one who would return Israel to glory, but Jesus opened their minds{Lk 24:32} to ALL that was written concerning Him. Beginning with Moses, because he was the first to give prophecy about the Messiah, and to this day Dt 30 remains a requirement to be fulfilled for Jews awaiting the Messiah.

In all probability, Moses impressed upon the Israelites to REMEMBER{Num 15:39, Dt 4:10 and many, many other examples} all that he taught them concerning the Lord. We moderns rely too heavily on things recorded, whereas the ancients possessed an understanding, and an ability, to maintain tradition/lessons via the spoken word by memorization and storytelling, which continues to this day in most third world cultures.  

To assert that Moses is not responsible for the whole of the Penteteuch as it reads today is not to undermine the faith but to strengthen it. How else, but by providing the historically accurate understanding of the practices of ancient cultures, can one help an unbeliever in the infallibility of the written Word of God. When presented with two differing accounts of creation, the departure from Egypt, as well as other seemingly contradictory passages, one must actively pursue the truth. To do such is because of an indelible gift from God. In this regard, as well as when engaging one who would presume a high level of intellect, it would be helpful to have as great an understanding as possible as to the composition of the Bible. Especially since it appears in so many different versions. God, through Moses, is responsible for that which is contained in the Penteteuch. Moses just didn't "write" all of it.

Noel,

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Jn 14:26

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Noel,

...I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father and the Son. He has spoken through the prophets.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
Ex 17:14 NIV

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
Ex 34:27 NIV

 The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and get twelve staffs from them, one from the leader of each of their ancestral tribes. Write the name of each man on his staff. On the staff of Levi write Aaron's name, for there must be one staff for the head of each ancestral tribe.

Num 17:1-3

Go now, write it on a tablet for them, inscribe it on a scroll, that for the days to come it may be an everlasting witness.
Is 30:8

"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you.
Jer 30:2

"Take a scroll and write on it all the words I have spoken to you concerning Israel, Judah and all the other nations from the time I began speaking to you in the reign of Josiah till now.
Jer 36:2

and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.
Ez 43:11

Then the LORD replied: "Write down the revelation and make it plain on tablets so that a herald may run with it.
Hab 2:2

"Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
Rev 1:11

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
Rev 1:19

 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands:
Rev 2:1

It appears that although much was inspired and written in the words of the "author". However, it also appears that much was to be exactly how the Trinity wanted it written!?!

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Jn 15:26

While I would not require it to be a verbatim testimony by the Holy Spirit to St Paul, I do not think the idea should be verboten! 
 

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Fides et Ratio

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Noel,

Did God "dictate" the design of the Ark of the Covenant? Surely the author uses his own words to describe events and the like, but did Moses decide on the measurements or did God?

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

So, then, since all of the Word is inspired, to state "thus says the Lord" is neither a stretch nor an absolute. Clearly, here in these fora, its purpose is fulfilled-to sustain us.{Dt 8:3, Mt 4:4, Lk 4:4}

p.s. I was writing of the Ark of the Covenant, not Noah's Ark, but the same thought would apply. :}

 There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

Zach,

And Jesus never commanded them not to write anything down!?!

If He knew it would divide people, don't you think...

The Word of God became a source of contention only after Luther decided he alone had the words of eternal life. His interpretation of Sacred Scripture outside of the Church is the foundation of today's protestant ignorance.

Perhaps you missed the Book of Revelation?

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!