fishman,

It’s baffling when Catholic voters continue to support a public figure who supports abortion.  The average voters in our country watch a lot of television.   They learn insolence and self-centeredness.  They’re acting out of ignorance and a poorly formed conscience.  Their faith is weak.

Our local bishop has the courage to defend the unborn publicly but I can understand your frustration if you live in a diocese where the bishop is silent on abortion.

You ask why pro-choice 'Catholic' politicians aren’t excommunicated.  I believe that these politicians excommunicate themselves and seem to be proud of it.  Leave the judging to God.  The secular media would have a heyday over a publicly excommunicated pro-choice politician.  We'd hear it described on TV every 15 minutes…forever.  The secular media would scandalize the Catholic hierarchy and the excommunicated politician would become a “ media martyr.”

 ...If progress, in order to be progress, needs moral growth on the part of humanity, then the reason behind action and capacity for action is likewise urgently in need of integration through reason's openness to the saving forces of faith, to the differentiation between good and evil. Only thus does reason become truly human. It becomes human only if it is capable of directing the will along the right path, and it is capable of this only if it looks beyond itself. Otherwise, man's situation, in view of the imbalance between his material capacity and the lack of judgement in his heart, becomes a threat for him and for creation. Thus where freedom is concerned, we must remember that human freedom always requires a convergence of various freedoms. Yet this convergence cannot succeed unless it is determined by a common intrinsic criterion of measurement, which is the foundation and goal of our freedom. Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope. Given the developments of the modern age, the quotation from Saint Paul with which I began (Eph 2:12) proves to be thoroughly realistic and plainly true. There is no doubt, therefore, that a “Kingdom of God” accomplished without God—a kingdom therefore of man alone—inevitably ends up as the “perverse end” of all things as described by Kant: we have seen it, and we see it over and over again. Yet neither is there any doubt that God truly enters into human affairs only when, rather than being present merely in our thinking, he himself comes towards us and speaks to us. Reason therefore needs faith if it is to be completely itself: reason and faith need one another in order to fulfil their true nature and their mission. Spe Salvi 23

No one with good faith or a good conscience could vote directly for the slaughter of the innocents. To be a baptised catholic, confirmed or not, does not automatically place oneself in the presence of God. A properly formed conscience is the key for we should always follow our conscience-even a malformed one{St Augustine}.

from the Catechism:

1790. A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791. This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792. Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement of one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

The Holy Spirit, the Great Paraclete, can not dwell with any soul that is obstinate or has heardened their heart and closed their ears to the cries of the weak.

However, the indelible mark placed in the heart of everyone continues to call out in the darkness which is our world today. We on CE are all proof of the conversion which the Giver of Life carries out in cooperation with a humbled heart.

So we fight. Our sword is the Crucifix and our shield is the Rosary. Our spiritual director is our pope.

May we all be inclined to pray more.

In Christ, 

There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!

A priest or bishop should not endorse or denounce from the church pulpit any political candidate.  All priests and bishops have a responsibility to make clear the Church teaching on abortion (and Humanae Vitae.)

Even though the Catholic clergyman is a registered Democrat doesn’t mean that we should conclude that the priest or bishop will vote for a politician who supports abortion.  We all vote secret ballot.  A community can really persecute a Catholic clergyman who changes from Democrat party to another party.  It’s serious business.

mreiner,

I'm not so sure.  How will the party platform change if it isn't called for by the registered Democrats?  They're not going to listen to Independents or Republicans. 

I'm not saying this is the "intentional plan" of all Catholic registered Democrats.  But I can see how it would be more effective to call for change if one is within that party. 

MREINER,

You forgot the gay marriage support as well.

lpioch, some things aren't worth trying to change from the inside.  The Democrat party was founded on keeping slavery alive, and they have succeeded.  The lie to women and tell them they need the Dems to keep abortion legal for their own good.  The Dems take as many rights away from parents as possible.  They tell blacks they can't succeed without handouts. 

I haven't talked with a single Democrat priest who was not a dissenter on at least a couple of Church teachings.  Not to say they're all that way, but I'd bet that a majority are.

Trying to save the Democrat party from the inside out is like getting a job as a bartender at a strip club so you can witness to the dancers and customers. 

noelfitz - my evalution is very similar but not exactly identical to yours ( as I stated rather colorfully in the origin post.) 

It is not a matter of a good vs a bad candidate this election.  It is a matter

of one who supports the destruction of marriage and the family as well as killing appx 27000 people ( by abortion) the next year and increasing that number if possible as well as ensuring that slaughter continues indefinately.

Vs. one who is consider a "hawk" in support of a miltary action that may kill as many as 7000 people ( many of whom can defend themselves and  are killed while the U.S. is actively trying to prevent them from dieing) over the next year.  he also does NOT propose to continue that action indefinately.  Also, it is unkown if removal of the U.S. presence will cause greater or lesser death in the area , and certainly possilble that the wrong kind of removable would cause greater death.

Certainly both are horrid candidates.  Obviously the latter is less horrid.

Catholics with the right to vote have an obligation to try and bring about the best situation possible , but what needs to be done should be clear.

Regardless of politics or not I just don't understand why more isn't done to take highly public wayward catholics to task over church teachings.

Not just the likes of John kerry various kennedys and other politicians, don't forget Malinda Gates ( head of the gates foundation promoting abortion laws and passing out condoms in south america).  What about catholic corporate leaders or radio commentators.  The bishops should hold all catholics responsible for their words and actions when they represent themselves as catholics and then openly teach that there are no consequences to ignoring church teaching.  

I truely believe if they did many of these people would repent and many souls would be saved.  But human beings ... are ... imperfect at best ... and I am no better. 

MREINER,

You asked how any Catholic in good conscience can register as a Democrat while the party platform specifically calls for abortion rights.  Many older people registered as Democrats before the Democrats approved abortion rights in their platform.  It's a shame that some older people are more concerned about free health care for themselves.

There's an advantage to remaining a Democratic registered voter.  Currently, registered Democrats in our state are circulating a petition for the Democratic Party to remove abortion rights from the platform.  These grassroots voters are hoping that is will send strong message to the Presidential Candidate and officers of the Democratic Party such as Howard Dean.  It is my hope that there a similar movement in other states.

AlvinaL - you are talking about human law and all it affects is non - profit status.   The church is bound by a higher calling then human law and if we must be myrted to speak the truth , so be it.  It was illegal to speak out against communsim , yet JPII most certainly did.

fishman, The only reason we are at war is because Congress voted to go there. The President is not solely powerful enough to declare war so voting for whomever does not guarantee that the legislative body will concurr. This is not Nazi Germany and one man is not powerful enough to override the intelligence of enough people who will oppose him. If you really want to correct our nations problems, they must be solved in moral obedience behaviors that plague our nation. The Pope advises American Presidents as well as other nations so our part of the equation is not entirely in how we vote, moreso in how we pray and what do we pray for. Only God can change a man's heart and Spirit. Go ahead and vote for the person whom you sense will listen to the Pope Benedict XV1. If we can obtain such a President who listens to moral reasoning, then will our nation return to "One nation under God". George Bush is obviously mistrustful of Catholic faith and reason. Do you know which candidate would listen to the Pope?

 King Henry 11 Holy Roman Emporer of Germany, Italy and Switzerland of the 10th Century: Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ and May God Bless Us All!

workinprogress: you wrote,"As for our so-called Catholic politicians who are very publicly promoting abortion, embryonic stem cell research and homosexual marriage, I echo the question "where are their bishops?"  They need to stand up and speak the truth. 

The Bishops are where they always were, at the Catholic Conference of Bishops, writing letters to politicians and meeting to define Catholic position papers defining the Catholic outlook on sin and suffering.

The problem is not with the Bishops, the problem is the narrow minded politicians and American Catholic's who do not have the courage to stand up for Catholic teaching. As Barrack Obama has stated so elequently, "Stand up for change"

If you wish to see the Kingdom of God on earth, do not promote democracy, promote the Kingdom of God on earth and listen to the Bishops. The Bishops are waiting for you at their conferences...and in your nearest Catholic church.

King Henry 11 Holy Roman Emporer of Germany, Italy and Switzerland of the 10th Century: Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ and May God Bless Us All!

WIP- I think you raise very vaild points. If "old line" Dems continue to weigh the  "pocket book" issues over the life issue, then it comes down to education from their local bishops and priests to help them understand that while the pocket book and other issue (the War, immigration, etc) are important, they simply don't have the same weight compared to life issues. If after getting and hopefully understanding the Church's teaching and position they still vote Democrat, then there is nothing left to do accept pray.

The issue is that when the Dems and Reps have their conventions this summer, it will be the Dem party that has planks in its platform, it official statement of beliefs, if you will, that support abortion, including partial-birth abortion, gay marriage, embryonic stem cell research. The Rep platforms will have statement apposing each of these issue. The Roman Catholic Church is already on record against these issue. So then I ask again, how can someone who calls themselves Catholic support a party that has a belief sytem as expressed through their party platform that is diametrically opposed to the beliefs of the Church and the laws of God?