Do not the Marian theologians and canon lawyers come across as lawyers and advisors in a civil divorce case? Is the divorce court system of America driving these decisions?
Destroying the marriage of the Holy Family. Look, they have already convinced us that Mary has divorced her husband and married her Son by calling Him the New Adam instead of the Last Adam, New Adam being the rightful title of Saint Joseph since he was her husband.
Just because we have fallen marriages, the Holy marriage of Joseph and Mary must fall, or are we the ones, who need to change.
Is this why JP II wrote the exhortation “Guardian of the Redeemer” to warn us? Are not the words of this dogma words of restoration. All right then, was marriage restored or just woman. Are women the only ones Christ centered? If so, then maybe, they are the only on qualified to be priests. Look, was Eve the only one to fall, therefore the only one to be restored. No, the marriage of Adam and Eve fell, therefore it is marriage Christ restored when he entered humanity. Yes, He restored Israel also, in so doing, He created the Church.
Is the knot, Mary uniting, matrimony? It seems to me, that if you destroy marriage, you destroy the Covenant which will end up destroying the Church.
This is just a warning, but when you start separating were does it stop. I hope we do not separate the Holy Family, lets keep marriage in tack, especial this one. These marital spouses are Christ centered, lets keep it that way.
I do not know, if this is a plot of the enemy, but I do believe, that if it is to go, it better be about the marriage of the most Holy Family.
There now, I have expressed my fears for the church in America, that we are taking our culture to the Church, instead of our Church to the culture. As a Church, we have far to many fallen marriages, work with our Savor in there restoration.
Catholic Exchange Forums » Faith and Life
Fifth Marian Dogma as an argument in a divorce case.
(31 posts)
Posted 7 months ago #
Ave Maria!
Whoa! Not sure where you came up with this idea! I know of NO one who thinks muchless convinced that Mary divorced her husband and married her Son! That is WAY 'out there'!
Yes, Our Lord is often referred to as the New Adam for through Him we are new creation. And Mary is referred to as the New Eve. I might especially recommend the writings of Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman on this topic to you. She is the new Eve because of her cooperation with Christ the 'new Adam'. Just as the fall of man came through the cooperation of one man and one woman, the restoration to grace came through Christ with the cooperation of Our Lady.
Guardian of the Redeemer is to point to the wonders of grace that imbued St. Joseph. He is a paragon of grace! The exhortation was to call attention to that fact and to increase our love for and veneration for this great saint and foster-father of Our Lord.
There was no ravelling of the marriage of Mary and Joseph; no separating in the Holy Family.
Many times Our Lord would tell souls not to be afraid. And how many times did Pope John Paul II echo that? Do not be afraid. The Church is not a man-made institution which is why it is still here and will remain until the end of time as we have Our Lord's promise on that. I know there are places in America and elsewhere where it seems as though the Church is on its deathbed and it is true that lampstands of faith cam be removed where Christ is rejected but the Church will grow elsewhere. And we know a great apostasy is predicted. Is this the time, is this the era?
Yes, the scandal of tens of thousands of annullments and the destruction of so many families is a concern. It is a travesty that the church tribunals have allowed this.
But it is for you and I and all to seek holiness in our own lives and in our own families. We must build our families strong in the faith and the culture and society are doing everything possible to prevent that.
I do agree that when marriages are destroyed or perverted, society itself will eventually fall.
Still, in spite of all the things going on--do have hope. Do continue to trust in Our Lord. Do continue to seek union with Him. One holy soul can make an enormous difference in the world as the example of many saints have shown us.
Posted 7 months ago #
Let us see, Adam is husband to Eve, but the New Adam is the Son of the New Eve. You do not see a hidden problem here?
Saint Paul, called Him the Last Adam, maybe Saint Paul has something here.
Saint Paul, called Him the Last Adam, maybe Saint Paul has something here.
Posted 7 months ago #
I am a little bit concerned.
There may appear to be attempts to downgrade the Second and Third Persons of the Blessed Trinity in some posts recently.
If St Joseph, rather than Jesus Christ, is claimed as the Second Adam, the importance of Jesus in salvation my be lowered.
Secondly if the Holy Spirit (Advocate, Paraclete, Comforter, Sanctifier) is replaced by Our Lady as our Advocate the status of the Holy Spirit again may be lowered.
I see from Zenit:
The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race." http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-2174.
What do you think? Am I being over-sensiitive?
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
Romans 5:18
Therefore as from the offense of the one man (Adam) the result was unto condemnation to all men, so from the justice of the one (Jesus) the result is unto justification of life to all men.
Romans 5:19
For just as by the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one (Jesus) the many will be constituted just.
Don, with your logic above, we Catholics should also have a problem with Mary being referred to as "The Daughter of God" and as "The Mother of God" and as "The Spouse of God".
As with all humanly-imposed "analogies" they break down...no...they are incomplete and not perfect enough, and our humanly-limited minds cannot fully appreciate the Truths there contained.
St. Paul gives us the comparison of Christ with Adam. Not a comparison of St. Joseph with Adam.
Posted 7 months ago #
Noel,
Rest assured that Our Lady is Advocate in exactly the same way that we are all called to be advocated. We are not and cannot replace the Holy Spirit. We are called to be co-redeemers, co-mediators, co-advocators THROUGH the power of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, there would be no Our Lady. Do you not advocate for those around you to Our Lord?
Posted 7 months ago #
Loretta
As usual your reply is sound and based on solid Catholic teaching.
However I do believe that considering Our Lady rather that the Holy Spirit as the Paraclete-Advocate may open up difficulties.
I admit In the Hail Holy Queen we pray:
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us;
I also agree we can all be considered advocates, but in the Zenit quote it has
Mary.. the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race." http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-2174.
Does “one" refer to both mediator and advocate?
If Mary is considered the one advocate, then the role of the True Advocate, the Holy Spirit is reduced.
Lumen Gentium (No 62) is careful in what it says:
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.
The Pope in an address in 1989 reminds us that the Holy Spirit is our Advocate:
The Holy Spirit-Paraclete will be the advocate-defender of the apostles... "for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say".
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
Look, Christ is the Savior(director of the garden), he hires and fires guards.A guard does not hire or fire only a director. Get your characters right. God the Father is the Proprietor, His Son the Director, and Saint Joseph is the guard center on his Son, his director(Savior).
Christ fired the first guard Adam and hired the second guard, the new Adam, Saint Joseph.
Now if Christ is the Director of Operations, he is in charge of the operation.
Christ fired the first guard Adam and hired the second guard, the new Adam, Saint Joseph.
Now if Christ is the Director of Operations, he is in charge of the operation.
Posted 7 months ago #
Don
Thank you for your post.
It states very clearly where you stand.
In this forum we have robust discussions where people express their views frankly and sincerly.
I disagree with you, but I may be in error.
For me Christ is the Second Adam. My view is influenced by the words of Cardinal Newman in the Dream of Gerontius.
| O loving wisdom of our God! |
When all was sin and shame, |
A second Adam to the fight |
And to the rescue came. |
O wisest love! that flesh and blood |
Which did in Adam fail, |
Should strive afresh against the foe, |
Should strive and should prevail; |
And that a higher gift than grace |
Should flesh and blood refine, |
God's Presence and His very Self, |
And Essence all-divine. I am also influenced by the words of St Paul. |
for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
(New Revised Standard Version, 1 Co 15:22)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19 For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification?f? leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(New Revised Standard Version, Ro 5:12-21).
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
What you and many are saying is that Christ must do this as a guard and not a director? That the director does not clean up the errors of the guard.
As a director, Christ can send us trainers, like the Holy Spirit.
And are you saying that a director cannot do the above?
As a director, Christ can send us trainers, like the Holy Spirit.
And are you saying that a director cannot do the above?
Posted 7 months ago #
Gee, thanks for pointing out the roles so clearly, Don!
That silly St. Paul said this was a mystery. How could he have missed it?
Posted 7 months ago #
I do not know that Saint Paul did miss it. Like, NoelFitz, I will say also, I may be in error.
I am always glad that I am challenged on these things, because that make look for error. Thanks NoelFizt.
About ninety percent of Catholic marriages are fallen, instead of restored. Why is that the case?
I am always glad that I am challenged on these things, because that make look for error. Thanks NoelFizt.
About ninety percent of Catholic marriages are fallen, instead of restored. Why is that the case?
Posted 7 months ago #
Don
You wrote:
About ninety percent of Catholic marriages are fallen, instead of restored. Why is that the case?
As well as difficulties there is a lot of good in the Church.
Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
Don,
A reading of JPII's Love and Responsiblity may help. In it, the late Pope writes about how the one flesh union between man and wife is a shadow -- the image and likeness -- of the Trinity. Kind of like how chewing gum is kind of an image or likeness of eating a fine meal. He also reflects upon the chaste spouse of the Blessed Virgin, and how, having the True meaning of God's Trinitarian Love in the flesh within their family, to engage in the one flesh union would have been a regression. It would have been like chewing gum when you are at the banquet table.
Don't you think the relationship of Christ as the Brideroom and Mary as the Mother of the Church might not mean Jesus is married to His mother? The role of Queen Mother throughout the OT might be hinting that the relationship between Jesus and Mary is that of King and Queen Mother, and not King and Queen Bride?
In the fifth chapter of his epistle to the Ephesians, St. Paul writes that wives should submit to their husbands and that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves His Church; that husbands should give themselves up sacrificially for their wives, making them holy and spotless. He goes on to say that this is a great mystery, and by that he means the relationship being like Christ and His Church.
So apparently Paul has this idea that there is something mysterious here.
Don't you?
Posted 7 months ago #
I like these golden nugets.
Let us look at something else at this point.
Gen 2:15 Adam becomes a guard.
Gen 2:21-23 Eve is formed from Adam's rib.
Does this mean that the charge of being a guard is that of Adam and Eve?
If so, the roles of marrital partners is that of guardian?
Let us look at something else at this point.
Gen 2:15 Adam becomes a guard.
Gen 2:21-23 Eve is formed from Adam's rib.
Does this mean that the charge of being a guard is that of Adam and Eve?
If so, the roles of marrital partners is that of guardian?
Posted 7 months ago #
PTR
I am again confused.
You seem to refer to an incestuous marriage of two of the offspring of Mary, her Son Jesus and her daughter the Church. So Jesus is not married to his mother but to his sister.
It is a bit complicated at this time of night.
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
Maybe this will help.
Lk 1:42
Elizabeth most famous praise of Mary, bessed are you amoung women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
These words are the vows of a guard. Who ever excepts these words is a guardian.
When Mary told Joseph and her family the words of Elizabeth, they knew exactly what was being said.
Joseph was to become a guardian too, for any vow taken by the wife was to be honor, and taken by the husband also.
Lk 1:42
Elizabeth most famous praise of Mary, bessed are you amoung women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
These words are the vows of a guard. Who ever excepts these words is a guardian.
When Mary told Joseph and her family the words of Elizabeth, they knew exactly what was being said.
Joseph was to become a guardian too, for any vow taken by the wife was to be honor, and taken by the husband also.
Posted 7 months ago #
Don,
What do you make of John 10:1-13?
Clearly Christ is ALSO the Gate. The keeper of the Gate. The guard, if you will, of all that enter into the sheepfold. Not St. Joseph.
Posted 7 months ago #
Is the voice the sheep heard that of the gatekeeper or the shepherd?
If the shepherd is Jesus, then the gatekeepers are Joseph and Mary.
If the shepherd is Jesus, then the gatekeepers are Joseph and Mary.
Posted 7 months ago #
A note: I have read the bible daily since 1967. I am in adult education and have administered the bible study for the last nine years. I believe a better name for the bible is Prophet training manual or a Deciple training manual.
Posted 7 months ago #
Let us bang some scripture text together and see what happens.
Mt 24:1-3
Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, "You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down." As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives,the disciples approached him privately and said, "Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Lk 2:46-52
After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions, and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety." And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he said to them. He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart. And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man.
Ez 10:18-23
Then the glory of the LORD left the threshold of the temple and rested upon the cherubim. Then the cherubim lifted their wings, and the wheels went along with them, while up above them was the glory of the God of Israel. And the glory of the LORD rose from the city and took a stand on the mountain which is to the east of the city.
This is the Fifth Joyful mystery, these three passages have the same origin. Explain if you can?
Mt 24:1-3
Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, "You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down." As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives,the disciples approached him privately and said, "Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Lk 2:46-52
After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions, and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety." And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he said to them. He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart. And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man.
Ez 10:18-23
Then the glory of the LORD left the threshold of the temple and rested upon the cherubim. Then the cherubim lifted their wings, and the wheels went along with them, while up above them was the glory of the God of Israel. And the glory of the LORD rose from the city and took a stand on the mountain which is to the east of the city.
This is the Fifth Joyful mystery, these three passages have the same origin. Explain if you can?
Posted 7 months ago #
Don
I do not know what your point is in your post about the Fifth Joyful mystery.
Would you please explain more explicitly?
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
Each scripture tells of the forming of the Church...
Posted 7 months ago #
First Two Arguments;
Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces. She states I am "the" Mediatrix.
with a wonderful image I cannot post here because of some function malfunction. Sorry!
A seer who had been given Nihil Obstat in Dublin, Ireland. A little book of messages called: All Through Mary,
with small title of the book: Devotion to Our Lady's Message of Mercy to the World
Second argument St. Joseph:
what is said is many things, but this here sums it up: Amiable Patriarch, Protector of those who are persecuted, solicitous supplier of consolation, most Venerable Joseph.
Also co-redeemer with all the rest in Heaven.
Peace
Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces. She states I am "the" Mediatrix.
with a wonderful image I cannot post here because of some function malfunction. Sorry!
A seer who had been given Nihil Obstat in Dublin, Ireland. A little book of messages called: All Through Mary,
with small title of the book: Devotion to Our Lady's Message of Mercy to the World
Second argument St. Joseph:
what is said is many things, but this here sums it up: Amiable Patriarch, Protector of those who are persecuted, solicitous supplier of consolation, most Venerable Joseph.
Also co-redeemer with all the rest in Heaven.
Peace
Posted 7 months ago #
My point is that:
Luke tells us about the restoration of the covenant of Adam & Eve.
Matthew tells of the restoration of covenant of Israel.
Ezekel is vision telling us about restoration.
Christ restores both not just one...
Luke tells us about the restoration of the covenant of Adam & Eve.
Matthew tells of the restoration of covenant of Israel.
Ezekel is vision telling us about restoration.
Christ restores both not just one...
Posted 7 months ago #
Yes!
But try not to put Saints above, Mary and Jesus!
Peace
But try not to put Saints above, Mary and Jesus!
Peace
Posted 7 months ago #
The whole point of a Savior is for All of Mankind because all souls come from God. All flesh is created by One God. Not some other off brand.
Peace
Peace
Posted 7 months ago #
Peace to You, bhokuto,
The fourth comandment is: Honor your father and mother.
As the Body of Christ, I believe I do just that, and I believe that is what Jesus would do. He would give honor to both His father and mother, therefore so do I.
Let us pray,
Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary, home as your wife, she will bear a Son, and you must name Him, Jesus.
Jesus is the One who saves us from our sins, O Foster Father of Jesus, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you amoung women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
The fourth comandment is: Honor your father and mother.
As the Body of Christ, I believe I do just that, and I believe that is what Jesus would do. He would give honor to both His father and mother, therefore so do I.
Let us pray,
Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary, home as your wife, she will bear a Son, and you must name Him, Jesus.
Jesus is the One who saves us from our sins, O Foster Father of Jesus, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you amoung women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Posted 7 months ago #
O'Malley
Indeed, Mary's role in our salvation is unique. And I do not downplay in any way the significance of her role in the economy of salvation.
But is it because God blessed Mary (full of grace) that Mary is so? Does not Mary say as much in the "Magnificat" (Luke 1:46-55)? In other words, Mary is not blessed because she said "yes" but Mary said "yes" because she is blessed.
All goodness comes from God. All glory goes to God.
Peace,
O'Malley
Posted 7 months ago #
O'Malley
Thank you for your profound post.
Since reading it, with its deep insight, I have been thinking about what you wrote, and I fully agree with you.
God chose Mary is the fundamental point. All grace is a gift from God.
The first words of Gabriel to Mary were:
“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God (New Revised Standard Version, Lk 1:30).
Mary acknowledged this when she said:
for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant (New Revised Standard Version, Lk 1:48).
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
Posted 7 months ago #
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