Don
Thank you for your sincere and moving post. It shows that at present, while we are waiting for the site to be updated, we can have contributions.

I hope to try to contribute here in a positive, encouraging ans uplifting way. "Let all things be done for building up" (NRSV, 1 Cor 14:26b).

However to encourage debate and responses to your post I am sending this reply.

You wrote:
"In this way the love of Christ is born, and the Church comes alive with the Spirit".

In your praise of Catholic marriage, I am sure you do not intend to minimize baptism.

You also wrote:
"It is this that gives man and woman the dignity they deserve".

However from the beginning man was made with the dignity of being "in the image and likeness of God".

Those born outside Catholic marriage can be baptised and participate fully in the kingdom.

One also should have great sympathy for those good married Catholics who do not have children.

What do you think, what do others think?

God bless,

Noelfitz

Don
many thanks for your post.

I am afraid I do not understand what you are getting at.

You wrote:
"Baptism is the marriage vows taken by Christ bride, the Church."
I do not undserstand this. I have a different view of baptism.

I agree with the CCC:
'1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."'

God bless,

Noelfitz.

Don,

I still do not understand what you are getting at.

Baptism is received only once, while one participates at Mass more frequently. In baptism I was not aware of any marriage symbolism.

Would you like to expand your insights?

God bless,

Noelfitz.

Let's talk about go to the table more than once, since you brought it up. Christ initiates the banquet but once when He entered heaven, we just go to the banquet table more than once because of time.

Time exist on earth but not in heaven, this is a mystery. We have cycle inwhich we come back to the table, they do not exist in heaven, so it is like one big banquet and not many little ones. This is the best I can do in explaining, can someone do better.

Don

thank you for continuing this discussion.

I am still confused - a semi-permanent state for me.

You wrote:

"The relationship is that of taking vows, this is done in Baptism and marriage. The vows of baptism bring us into relationship with Christ. The vows of marriage bring us into relationship with our spouse.

This is why Saint Paul show a relationship between husbands and wives to that of Christ and His Church."

This seems to me to be a huge "non sequitur".

I cannot see a connection between marriage/baptism covenants and the Pauline idea of the relationships between spouses and christ and his Church.

Are you referring to Ephesians??

"22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands."
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Eph 5:22-24 (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989).

My wife says I can claim to be the boss, as long as I do not believe it.

God bless,

Noelfitz.

Don,

many thanks for your post.

Who really is the boss? My wife claims that I am the boss, but that perhaps is to humor me.

In fact I think we are a partnership.

God bless,

NoelFitz.

Don,

You might be interested in the enclosed. I received it in an email from Zenit.

"VATICAN CITY, MAY 15, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI says there is a profound bond between the sacraments of marriage and the Eucharist.

The Pope affirmed this today in the Vatican when he received in audience participants in the plenary assembly of the Pontifical Council for Migrants and Travelers, focused on "The Emigrant and Itinerant Family." (VATICAN CITY, MAY 15, 2008 (Zenit.org))."

God bless,

Noelfitz.

Don,

it is always great to hear from you.

The Pope considered Christ in his talk.

"Benedict XVI went on to examine the "profound bond" between the sacrament of the Eucharist and that of marriage, noting how "the liturgy places the celebration of the sacrament of marriage at the heart of the celebration of the Eucharist. [...] In their daily lives, couples must draw inspiration for their behavior from the example of Christ who 'loved the Church and gave himself up for her.'" (http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-22593).

Please also see http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=88541.

I note there seems to be only about one post per day.

How can we encourage more?

God bless,

Noelfitz.

The greatest example of this is the marriage of Saint Joseph and Mary. This marriage was total within Christ and an example for us all. Both of these spouses gave all they had to Christ and the will of God the Father. Elevated by Christ to the highest of heaven. The restoration of marriage to as it was at the beginning with Adan and Eve in the garden.

The fifth joyful mystery, the finding in the temple, is the movement of old marital covenant of Adam and Eve to the new covenant, thus restoring this covenant. Mary and Joseph therefore are the new Adam and Eve of New Covenant and restores the covenant of marriage from its fall in the garden.

The marriage of Joseph and Mary is based on the Real Presence as our marriages ought to be, they should be Incarnate, Christ centered, at each Feast of the Lamb of God, through the Eucharist, we have an Incarnation. This is what stabilizes our culture, and our faith.

Marriage by its very nature is trinitarian and Christ is the heart of the marital covenant, and the relationship of a husband to his wife.

We are to become new creations in Christ, not husbands or wives, but what do we here, I am just like my mother or father, this is to fail to understand the nature of marriage, which should cause our children to become new creations in Christ.

Why does this happen, because we fail to understand, the second is liken unto the first, we are to love our neighbors as ourself. Our neighbor is becoming a new creation in Christ, thus we love him like we love Christ, with all are mind, heart and strength. A note this is most dignified by the sign of the cross for God the Father is the mind of God, God the Son is the Heart of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Strength of God, so every time we make the sign of the cross we remember the fullness of our redemption.

What does this show us, that our marriage too, can be Incarnate. This is an important distinction, for if we have marriage like this, they will last.

This is why, I would like Saint Joseph dogmatically declared the new Adam we would not argue about this any longer, but would integrate it into our faith.

I pray that this not a pride within me, but rather the spirit of the Lord, and His will. I am not declairing Saint Joseph the New Adam, I am typing him as such. No man other than Christ, has been as Holy as Saint Joseph.

I wonder, how does one gets a dogma started...

Regarding Jesus as the new Adam, this is true when we the church are the new Eve, for it is the restoration of the Old Covenant, but is not true in regard to restoration of the fallen marriage of Adam and Eve.

There is a big difference between the marriage of Adam and Eve, and the Incarnation, the marriage of Jesus to all mankind. Remember the statement the “Two shall become one flesh” this is accomplished in the Incarnation, when God becomes one flesh with man. This is how marriage is defined for us by God. We define it as between a man and a woman, but God put His Son right into the middle and says marriage can not exist with out His Son.

For the first Adam and Eve, it was the presence in the garden, for us the Eucharist which binds us together as family. The Eucharist by its very nature is Incarnate and put us into a marital relationship with God. A husband and wife are first married to the church and its Eucharist, then to each other, for with out Christ there is no marriage.

There is a unity here, yes, but there also is a separation of functions. In the case of church we can define Jesus as the new Adam, but in the case of marriage, we can not, less we take the Eucharist away from our members. This especially important to married couples, they need His help.

What happen when the Incarnation came into the family of Joseph and Mary, in essence the second church was formed, but also the second marriage, but just like the old testament, we soon upgrade from family to tribe. This is why marriage is a sacrament. Saint Joseph represents the administrative side of the Church, that is our Pope, bishops and priest. Mary represents the Body of believers. Christ, the Eucharist, stands right were He belongs, in the middle, the very heart of Church and marriage.

Have ever noticed, that the two sacraments that are Holy, are marriage and orders, that is because they both are centered on the Incarnation.

Can I lobby here, and pray...

Don,

Thank you for keeping discussions alive.

However, really it is simplest the think of Christ as the New Adam and Mary as the New Eve.

God bless,

Noelfitz.

Don

Thanks for your post.

There are not too many of us left here.

Thinking about the fifth Joyful Mystery, I presume one would meditate on the relief Jesus and His family felt when they were reunited.

No one seems to have behaved very well in this instance. Jesus did not inform his parents he was not going home with them, and they did not immediately miss Him.

Perhaps one is reminded of Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest":

"To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."

God bless,

Noelfitz.