Is there a schism in American Catholicism?
It seems to me there are two Catholic Churches in the US, both claiming to be the one true Church.
One is faithful to the teaching of Rome, being orthodox, traditional, conservative, rigid and clear in its views. The other is liberal, caring, ecumenical, progressive and open to change.
Catholic Bishops, priests and laity seem to belong to one or other of these schismatic groupings.
God bless,
Noelfitz.
why do you say both are schezmatic.
Fishman,
Many thanks for your reply.
I uses the term "schism", in the following sense:
"a division between strongly opposed parties, caused by differences in opinion or belief."
Catherine Soanes and Angus Stevenson, Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th ed. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004)".
I do not think either grouping is heretical, both belong to the Mystical Body of Christ - The People of God.
God bless.
Noelfitz.
PS: as you know I would like to have more of us back discussing and reflecting on our faith. Thus some of the topics I raise are provocative and I hope will elicit replies.
PPS: Is it possible in the new roundtable to have signatures as we had in teh past? As you know I believe in freedom of opinion about dubious things, unity in essentials and charity in all. NF
well, there is in fact a very strong heresy of libral protestantism in the united states in certain parishes. Most however are reasonably adhearent. Of coarse some of it depends on the tolerance of the local ordinary. A few of whom may also not recognize the harmfulness of some of these philosophies. However it is only certain parishes.
Fishman
I really am delighted to hear from you. Thank you very much. I am discouraged now by the lack of interest here. There are so few posts. Some time ago I thought things had changed as there seemed to be an increase in contributions, but these were mainly from you.
I think heresy is too strong a word, I prefer schism; perhaps fundamental views are generally accepted.
You agree with me.
Basically I do believe the bishop is the boss. If he is not removed my Rome, Catholics must give him allegiance.
God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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well, even a bishop can fall into heresy. I was identifing a philosphy.
Libralism is a condemed heresy, which ties directly with protestansim.
it is the belief that freedom is defined as the ability to decide what is right or wrong for onself and then do whatever you decide.
Which you can see is the root of protestantism.
So there are some churches that exhibit that philosphy here in the states.
Fishman
Thank you for trying to keep this round-table alive.
I partially agree with you.
There are many definitions of Liberalism. You use the term as Cardinal Newman used it, i.e. as a synonym for relativism.
However in the Church now this type of belief is prevalent. The Church gives little guidance.
What is the Church ruling on voting for Obama?
Is it a mortal sin to decide to vote for him?
God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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noelfitz- I think the Church in Chicago is given ample evidence-the fact that they have apparently bowed to pressure and returned Fr. Pfleger to his supposedley RC Church in Chicago after he openly supported Obama and made racists comments. I assume that Fr. Pfleger knows Obama's abortion position as does the Archdioces of Chicago-so in my mind the Church in that locale is not taking a stand against a candidate who is in direct oppoosition to THE FUNDAMENTAL issue for Catholics.
BTW- there are still many issues with this new design and I am afraid that most of the old posters may have given up.
Mreiner16
Good to hear from you.
I think you agree with my opinion that the Church is split in the US.
The question of the sinfullness of voting for Obama has not been clearly resolved.
Perhaps we might try to gather the lost sheep back around this round-table.
God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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As there seems to be so litle interest in this round-table, is there anywhere else in CE where we can discuss, support and encouarage each other as we used to do here?
God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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Noel:
Thanks for continuing the discussion in the face of what could be percieved as wide-spread apathy about the new forum design.
You said that "[t]he question of the sinfullness of voting for Obama has not been clearly resolved." How so? I thought it was pretty clear from the statements of our bishops that have been posted on these fora in other places. Perhaps you could develop this further.
In Christ,
Michael
i think things will start to pick up again on the form. People are ajusting to the format and they are starting to get the bugs worked out. We should all pray for the bishop and priest of chicago.
Fishman, Michaelme, Mreiner16 and anyone else out there,
I am pleased to read the positive post that more will (re)join as we get used to the new format.
I read the request “Perhaps you could develop this further”.
In this roundtable my views have been considered sympathetically.
I am out of the US since 1969. We went to the US on our honeymoon which lasted several years. The Kennedy years were Camelot. "Bliss was it that dawn to be alive / But to be young was very heaven."
To vote Republican for Irish-American Catholics was difficult. I remember a friend saying his father would turn in his grave if he knew his son voted for the Republican Nixon.
The Clinton years were years of relative prosperity. Bush and the Republicans brought war and poverty. Due to the sub-prime crisis in the US housing market all over the world, even in Ireland, houses have collapsed in value.
In Ireland we are more left wing than most Americans, who seem to me to be like Warren Buffett’s father – slightly to the right of God. I am in favor of helping the poor, the disadvantaged, the marginalized and thus may be considered left wing.
Thus I would like to support Obama and the Democrats.
However reading the www, unfortunately I cannot see how those who believe in the Ten Commandments can support him. Jews, Protestants and Catholics believe in the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”.
Many web sites use extreme language and are emotional and aggressive in condemning Obama. But even if one is a liberal, left-wing, socialist Christian or Jew one cannot condone murder/abortion.
Democrats appear stupid. Why cannot they agree with the separation of Church and State and realize that abortion is a moral issue?
So I regret to say that I do not see how Catholics can support Obama.
To me McCain would not be a suitable candidate either, as he is a Republican and belongs to the same party as Bush and he would continue with the fighting in the Middle East.
God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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noelfitz- Thank you for keeping the thread going and your thoughtful reply. I guess i am an oddity-I am Irish-American and from New York-you would think I be DEmocrat, but I've been a life long Republican and up until recently fairly proud of that. I think the Rep's have led the way in most of the social-moral issues. I know that my Dem friends would say what about the social and povert issues. The Rep policies worked during the Reagan years-the wealth of most Americans actually increased-the idea of less government, less taxes, helping people stand up agin for themselves, but ot suporting them forever ("teach a man to fish rather than give him the fish") has been policies I support.To blame the war soley upon Bush and the Rep's is not fair. At the time, most Americans, including most Dems in the Congress voted for the War. I guess we all should have listened to Our Holy Father JP II who was one of the few voices rasied against the war.
I am concerned for my country right now. I FEAR a Democrat controlled Congress and a Democrat President. Obama has already signalled that he will push Federal legisltaion usurping state laws on the abortion issue. He does not respect life! That to me is a minimal standard. On his coatails we will see Democrats control both Houses of Congress and I fear more government control over our lives and attempts to impose their agenda on all of us.
Mreiner16
Unfortunately I agree with you.
Looking at the www now it is hard not to agree with
"Obama has already signalled that he will push Federal legisltaion usurping state laws on the abortion issue. He does not respect life! That to me is a minimal standard".
When I look at web sites concerning Catholic support for Obama they seem to be from pro-abortion Catholics (an oxymoron!!).
God bless,
Noelfitz.
PS: I would like to ask for your prayers at present for my family. NF
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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NF- Your intentions and those of your family will be remembered in our prayers. God Bless.
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Rock Solid with Mark Shea: April 14, 2008 - Confirmation: Piety and Knowledge