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Does God Know Our Decisions Before We Make Them?

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laurak - Member

My son & I had a heated discussion over whether or not God knows our decisions before we do. My son has a friend that just graduated from a Catholic college with a theology degree who says that yes, God knows what we will decide before we do. Their reasoning is that God exists in the past, present & future and He is all knowing. Since God exists in the future, he already knows what our decisions or choices will be.

I do not think so. I think that God gave us free will and for example, at the moment of our death, we decide to choose God or reject God and He does not know our choice until then.

My son even went so far to say that what I believe is a heresy, that was one of the first misconceptions of the early church.

I can not find anything in the Catechism on this subject, except that God is eternal and He gave us freewill and He respects our choices.

Does anyone know, or can show me in the Catechism or Bible, if God knows our choices before we make them?

I sure appreciate any input you can provide me. This may become a learning experience for my son & I.

LauraK

Posted 2 months ago #
lpioch - Moderator

God does know our decisions before we make them.
I think some people resist this notion with a mistaken understanding of God "knowing". Yes. We have freewill. And he will not step in and force our wills. I think you are running under a (false) assumption, so I will ask you:

Why do you think that God's knowing means God's acting/causing?

For example, I know that tomorrow the sun will rise. Does that mean that I made the sun rise?

This really gets to our own virtues of hope and charity. God's love for us is so perfect that He continues to flood us with his grace so that we CAN freely choose to reciprocate His love. But it does not guarantee that we WILL freely choose to reciprocate. But that does not stop his loving us nonetheless.
It really makes clear how our sins and our turning from God really are an offense against God's love.

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

Far be it from me to interfere in a family dispute.

Laurak's son claims what I was taught in primary school by the nuns, and hence must be correct.

God knows everything.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 2 months ago #
laurak - Member

If God knows in advance what we will do, then why do we have intercessory prayers? Do we really have free will?

I am trying to understand if God is acting or causing events to happen in our world, including our own lives. How did He know Mary would say "yes" for an example?

My son's friend says our lives are like a book that we write, but God knows the book from front to cover. Would you say that this is an accurate discription?

Peace.

Laura K.

Posted 2 months ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Laura,

You ask:
"If God knows in advance what we will do, then why do we have intercessory prayers? Do we really have free will? "

Why do you assume that intercessory prayers interfere with free will?

Why do we have intercessory prayers? Because we are a family. Families communicate, share love, share frustration, ask for help, you name it.
To really minimize the example (becasue with God, all analogies fall very short):

I know that if I'm busy running errands and I don't get home until 1:30, guaranteed my 4 yr old is going to say "Mom, I'm hungry."
Now, I could have fed her lunch anywhere between 11:30 and 1:30 and it would be just fine. I have not interfered (I know I'm spelling that word wrong.) with her free will at all. And I would be providing for what I know she needs. But one day (and if I was God, I would know it would happen in advance) she may say at noon "Mom, I'm hungry. May I please have some lunch?" and I may take that "prayer" of communication from my loving, trusting daughter, and decide to feed her as a treat while running errands instead of waiting until I get home. If she had not asked, I would have waited to give her what she needs. But she asked so nicely that my heart melts with her loving trust in my motherhood that I bless her with a little treat.

Now, as a human, I could even have pre-thought, "Well, if she asks earlier, then we'll stop somewhere."

God, as God, has all this incorporated into His Being. But if we never ask, things most likely play out differently.

Posted 2 months ago #
Zachaeus - Member

With all due respect to the nuns, the moderator and the Catholic Church in its infinite wisdom, but I would suggest that they might be “out to lunch” so to speak on this one. As far as I know it is not a tenet (doctrine of even dogma) of the Catholic faith to believe that the Triune God chooses to exist outside the arrow of time. God could most certainly choose to exist only in the present and as well God could choose not to know the future thereby experience the joy and perhaps even the fear of living in the present as it becomes manifest like we do.

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

Laurak

Thank you so much for raising this issue.

It is the first discussion we have had in months.

You ask "If God knows in advance what we will do, then why do we have intercessory prayers? Do we really have free will?"

I appreciate the points you are making.

I have raised similar questions with my spiritual director/adviser/friend.

Start from the idea that God knows all things and intercessary prayers are appropriate. Then try to undersdtand these. "Faith seeking understanding" (St Anselm).

The Bible has many examples of God changing his mind when asked. It may be anthromorphism, but indicates we should ask God for favors. God has willed it this way.

I also have a problem about Mary's "Yes", as from the beginning God decided on her.

"Paul VI says further on: "In the Virgin Mary everything is relative to Christ and dependent on him. It was with a view to Christ that God the Father from all eternity chose Mary to be the all-holy Mother and adorned her with gifts of the Spirit given to no one else. Christian piety (http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1994/feb1994p20_818.html).

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 2 months ago #
lpenrodstock - Member

God does not operate on minutes, seconds or time. HE is the same in the beginning, now and forever. As a great priest once told me....if you studied and studied about the stock market and could predict with absolute certainty what it would do (and isn't this relevant to today - hahaha)....

Did you CAUSE it to happen?

God KNOWS the outcome - but HE WANTS His us to follow Him - He won't make us.....

Think about this - - - God keeps everything going. It's when God STOPS doing what HE is doing that we are in complete peril.

Amen.
Laura

Posted 2 months ago #
laurak - Member

Hello Noel. Good to hear from you!

This is the heart of what I have a problem in understanding. If God knew Mary would say "yes", how did He know this before He even asked her? Wasn't her "yes" a decision made of her own free will? Isn't that why we love her so much, because of her choice?

If God already knows what will happen, and we pray and He shows us kindness, like the good Father He is - does that mean He changed history? Or that He knew we would ask Him for our particular need, before we even asked for it?

Jesus knows about the end of the world, that the world will be destroyed by fire and all of the signs leading up to the end of the world, and of the new world to come. Jesus knew He would be tortured, crucified, die, descend to hell and be raised on the third day for the forgiveness of our sins. It does seem that events are predestined by God. I just don't understand where we play a part, our decisions and the course of our lives. Do we really have freewill to choose God or reject Him? Did Jesus know ahead of time that Judas would betray Him? Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him. Were these events pre-destined or did Judas and Peter make their decisions by their own free will?

I don't know why I am on this train of thought, but maybe I will learn something from it. Saint Augustine explored issues such as these and came to realize the truth about the nature of God. Perhaps we are all on this same quest, together!

LauraK

Posted 2 months ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Does this help?:

You wrote:
If God already knows what will happen, and we pray and He shows us kindness, like the good Father He is - does that mean He changed history? Or that He knew we would ask Him for our particular need, before we even asked for it?

God is not in time, but because we humans really can only think in terms of time, we still have to use time-analogies and the like.

Can you think of God looking ahead to the future to see that Mary would say YES or that you would ask a particular prayer from Him? This still does not mean that He violates anyone's free will. It means He simply knows ahead of time (there's that "time" thing again...very limiting when applied to God) what we will do.

You still have the free will. You exert your free will. If you choose well or choose poorly, you affect yourself and those around you. The responsibility of free will is still upon you. He is giving you sufficient grace to be able to choose His Will. But we can over-ride that and still do our own will.

God has already read the book. But we are writing the book as we live out our lives each and every day. But God is not outside of the book. He interacts with his children as a loving Father. Only in ways that do not subvert or even nudge our freewill.

But since God is outside of time (so he's in the past, the present, and the future), it doesn't take him any time at all to read it.

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

L & L

I appreciate this discussion.

People have struggled with the problem of free will for centuries.

Basically we accept that we have free will. In practice it is difficult to see what this means. We know we are bombarded with hidden persuaders constantly and our decisions are influenced by many things.

Why do we pray, if God already knows what will happen? We pray because God wants us to, and Jesus in His life on earth gave examples of prayer.

'Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you'.
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, 1 Th 5:16-18 (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989).

Did Jesus know ahead of time that Judas would betray Him?
Yes.
'Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot'
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Jn 13:26 (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989).

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 2 months ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Noel,
I love how you are able to say the Truth simply:
Basically we accept that we have free will. In practice it is difficult to see what this means.

and

Why do we pray, if God already knows what will happen? We pray because God wants us to, and Jesus in His life on earth gave examples of prayer.

Faith and obedience. Sounds like a good Father/Child relationship to me!

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

Loretta,

thank you for your kind words.

I do share Laurak's concerns. I have thought about these issues for a long time.

They are very difficult, as can be shown by the disputes since the Reformation between people of goodwill.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 2 months ago #
fishman - Member

Yeah .. a good discussion :)

Hey Z -- you are incorrect no one is out to lunch.

"I believe in God the father almighter creator of Heaven and earth of all that is seen and unseen".

That means God greated TIME and thierfore is not dependant or inside of time but above and beyond it.

The ancients philosophers used to write "God is not circomscirbed by time".
and the idea and belief go way back.

I'm not certain if there was ever offically an anethma declared for not believed God was uncircumscribed, but that is the intent and meaning of the first line of the creed and there are more then a few anethma's declared against those who do not accept it.

So yes, the idea that God exist outside the arrow of time is Catholic Dogma.

Philosophers refer to God's time as 'the eternal now'.

From His prespective, he IS creating the world, He is dieing on the coross for our sins, He IS judging at the end of the world.

This is a nessary part of the idea that God is unchanging ( also, catholic Dogma).

These things are high philosophy and deep mystery. difficult, nay, impossible to completly understand, but declared true and know to be true from scripture and tradition.

God can relent without changing.
God can be born and be crucified without changing.

he does all things for love.

Posted 2 months ago #
laurak - Member

I appreciate your posts on this subject. This is helping my understanding about God. As I watered my flowers this evening, I looked up at the sky and thought about this discussion. That God is outside of time.

Who are we that God should notice us? We are like little ants to Him and to think, that God knows what is in our little minds and hearts is just amazing. The things we think about and worry about, are really miniscule in comparision to the universe. The magnitude of God and the nature of God may always be somewhat of a mystery to us humans. I think I will have alot of questions to ask one day, if I do make it to heaven. By then, my understanding of God will certainly be changed as well. I can not comprehend the mystery of God right now - only admire His handiwork.

LauraK.

Posted 1 month ago #
Zachaeus - Member

Yes, I believe that God is the creator of all that is. Time "is", so God created time. To believe that God chooses to experience human existence as we live out the ever present “present” is entirely within God’s capabilities…unless you wish to limit God’s omnipotence. I like to believe that although we are insignificant and maybe “ant like”, I believe that we are the only show in town. Like it or not we humans are as good as its gets…unless you know of other beings to whom God would rather give attention to? We are God’s creation, made in the very likeness of God. Why would God not be living the creation as we do? Kinda defeats the purpose of the creation don’tcha think?

Posted 1 month ago #
michaelme - Member

I hope to be forgiven for arriving late to the party.

Zachaeus said:

"To believe that God chooses to experience human existence as we live out the ever present “present” is entirely within God’s capabilities…unless you wish to limit God’s omnipotence."

That something is "entirely within God's capabilities" does not mean that He must act. God could create a one-horned-one-eyed-flying-purple-people-eater...but He hasn't. On the other hand, however, God is omniscient. While omnipotent means that He is able to do something (accept that which is absurd, according to Aquinas, like creating a rock so heavy He can't lift it (Book 1, Question 25, Article 3) I'm paraphrasing a bit), omniscience describes more closely Who God IS. One cannot be omniscient and not-omniscient (even by choice) at the same time. God must, therefore, know our thoughts, our decisions, and our very being.

God chose to be "present" in time through the incarnation - Eternity comes into time. In this way he experiences all that it is to be human, including time. But this does not mean that his nature is not one possessing omniscience.

Laura:

The only anathema I found (in an admitedly quick search) was one anathematizing those who would say that Jesus is not omnipotent and omniscient as His Father is (Pope Damasus).

I believe that God knows my decisions and my eternal fate. I make the choices allowed me. With apologies to Michael Coney, God has not created some great "if-along," and is aware of all of the "happen-tracks" but keeps Himself ignorant of those crucial points which shape the "decision tree" of each of our lives. At least that is my understanding of the Church's teaching on God, free will, etc.

Great discussion...thanks Laura.

In Christ,
Michael

Posted 1 month ago #
Zachaeus - Member

The Blessed Virgin Mary did have a choice to make. We don’t know how many other young Jewish virgins that the angel Gabriel had to visit before the angel found one who would agree and run the risk of bringing shame to her family and a possible death sentence. I think that the Church attempts to diminish the significance of her choice while at the same time glorifying her by teaching that she was uniquely and immaculately conceived thereby giving her special “status” or even an advantage in her life’s journey by being sinless. What was the big deal about her choice to bear the very son of God if she already walked with both feet in heaven while still on her earthly journey?

Let me try to explain why I would suggest that God does not know our decisions and choices before we make them. The past “happened”, it “was” and therefore has/had existence. But the future does not exist. The future is yet to be and is simply a term used to identify “time that isn’t”. A similar example to this is the term “darkness” which is merely a word used to explain the “absence of light”. Darkness does not exist. God cannot make darkness exist. It is, as Aquinas so rightly coins, an absurdity. The future does not exist as if it has happened, even for God. It is an absurdity, in my opinion. I believe that this understanding is not in violation of either the notion the omnipotence nor the omniscience of the Creator. Perhaps God “hopes” like the rest of us.

Posted 1 month ago #
michaelme - Member

Zacheus:

We know that the angel Gabriel visited no other young Jewish virgins since Mary was preserved immaculate in advance by the merits of her Son. She could not have been so preserved had it not been known that Christ would be her Son. Her choice is not diminished, however, since, though knowing what whe would choose in advance, God's gift of free will was active in her.

When speaking of the eternal one cannot also speak of time...one is a state, the other is a measure. God resides in the eternal "now"...all things happen before him in the "present." To speak of God's future is the absurdity since God is unbound by his creations of space and time. For us the future does not exist to our minds, but to God all moments in time are ever-present. To have a "future" for God would imply that he can change, which he cannot. Only we humans can "become"...God already IS.

In Christ,
Michael

Posted 1 month ago #
noelfitz - Member

I note that:
"Pope John Paul II summed up the tradition in his Marian encyclical, Redemptoris mater:

From the first moment of her conception — which is to say of her existence — she belonged to Christ, sharing in salvific and sanctifying grace and in that love which has its beginning in the "Beloved," the Son of the eternal Father, who through the Incarnation became her own Son. Consequently, through the power of the Holy Spirit, in the order of grace, which is a participation in the divine nature, Mary receives life from him to whom she gave herself in the order of earthly generation — gave life as a mother. . . . And since Mary receives this "new life" with a fullness corresponding to the Son's love for the mother, and thus corresponding to the dignity of the divine motherhood, the angel at the Annunciation calls her full of grace?[2]"

From this it seems to me that Mary's acceptance was a bit of a fiction.

From all eternity she had been chosen as the mother of Jesus.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 1 month ago #
sinewave - Member

Z,
It seems like you are trying to make God in your own image, more like us, more human, or more fallen-human. God, the author of life and all creation, seen and unseen, is not contained or restricted by His creation, no more than an novel's author is confined by the story that he is writing.
As was stated before, knowing that something will happen does not mean causing it to happen, like if I see someone drop an egg from their hand, I KNOW it will fall to the ground, but I do not cause it to hit. I might even know that he will drop it, (give a toddler in a high chair something and first he puts it in his mouth, then throws it to the floor) but that doesn't mean I cause it to happen. It's impossible to know God fully or even know about Him fully, but I know this for sure: the more we make God like us, to try to better understand Him, the farther away we actually get from truly knowing Him.

Here's a quote from Cd Newman about his definition of God (who is infinitely beyond us):

"I mean then by the Supreme Being, one who is simply self-dependent, and the only Being who is such; moreover, that He is without beginning or Eternal, and the only Eternal; that in consequence He has lived a whole eternity by Himself; and hence that He is all-sufficient, sufficient for His own blessedness, and all-blessed, and ever-blessed. Further, I mean a Being, who, having these prerogatives, has the Supreme Good, or rather is the Supreme Good, or has all the attributes of Good in infinite intenseness; all wisdom, all truth, all justice, all love, all holiness, all beautifulness; who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent; ineffably one, absolutely perfect; and such, that what we do not know and cannot even imagine of Him, is far more wonderful than what we do and can. I mean One who is sovereign over His own will and actions, though always according to the eternal Rule of right and wrong, which is Himself. I mean, moreover, that He created all things out of nothing, and preserves them every moment, and could destroy them as easily as He made them; and that, in consequence, He is separated from them by an abyss, and is incommunicable in all His attributes. And further, He has stamped upon all things, in the hour of their creation, their respective natures, and has given them their work and mission and their length of days, greater or less, in their appointed place. I mean, too, that He is ever present with His works, one by one, and confronts every thing He has made by His particular and most loving Providence, and manifests Himself to each according to its needs; and has on rational beings imprinted the moral law, and given them power to obey it, imposing on them the duty of worship and service, searching and scanning them through and through with His omniscient eye, and putting before them a present trial and a judgment to come."

Peace,

~~~swd~~~

Posted 1 month ago #
laurak - Member

The strangest thing happened today at mass, and then earlier in the week.

For some odd reason at mass, I began thinking about the St. Vincent DePaul society. I am not involved with the St. Vincent DePaul ministry in any way, other than donating items sometimes. I remembered the man who is charge of this ministry for some reason, just BEFORE I turned around and shook his hand at mass. He had inadvertantly sat behind me!

This week on Tusday, my co-worker (a Jehovah Witness) and I had a lengthy discussion about being "blessed" by being weathly or being able to afford expensive homes, cars, jewelry, etc. She believes that wealth & possessions are a blessing from God. I believe that you can not love God and money and that material things are not important. We will be judged by what we do, like visiting the sick, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, greeting strangers, and visiting those in prison.

I went to our class in prison ministry a couple of hours later and the scripture readings were what Jesus said about visiting the sick, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, greeting strangers and visiting those in prison. The girls brought up the verse that you can not love God and money and a male volunteer had a little discussion with them about this verse.

On the way home, it occurred to me that my coworker and I had discussed these same scripture readings an hour or two BEFORE we read them in our prison ministry class.

The Holy Spirit certainly knew what would happen BEFORE it happened, this week. Maybe this is God's way of telling us something!

May the peace of Christ be with you all today!

Laura K.

Posted 1 month ago #
noelfitz - Member

Laura

I find your posts and this discussion (the only substantial one in this new dispensation) very encouraging and uplifting. It makes me realize why I appreciate CE.

I do wish we could be back to having friendly and robust discussions about our mutual faith.

Has the new format settled down?

What can be done to encourage debate?

What is a class in prison ministry?

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 1 month ago #
laurak - Member

Hi Noel, and everyone else who reads this too.

Yes, I think the new format has settled down now.

Encourage debate? Well, does anyone else think that coincidences are accidental? Are coincidences random acts or could they be moments when God is actually touching our lives?

Noel, you asked about our prison ministry classes. I am a volunteer in a Catholic group that visits girls who are incarcerated in a local correctional facility. We now have a deacon and a Catholic psychologist who recently became volunteers, too. We take turns teaching Catechism classes, bible study, teach our Catholic prayers, the Liturgy of the Word, and other activities that help these girls reconnect with our faith. Right now, we have two girls who were altar servers in the Catholic church, before they made the mistakes that brought them to this facility.

Our city also has groups that visit the men's prison and the women's prison and have RCIA classes there. And there is this really wonderful Franscican priest who visits the women's jail all by himself, to help reconcile these women to God, have mass, and he gives them rosaries. The women say he is nervous and kind of shy around them, but they can tell he cares about them. He is definately a candle in their darkness.

I have always enjoyed learning about our Catholic faith, but it has really been a neat experience, to see it lived out in the most unlikely of places.

Laura K.

Posted 1 month ago #
noelfitz - Member

Laura

I do prison visitation, as part of the St Vincent de Paul Society. But we do not talk about religion. We are more likely to discuss football.

Today one of the people visited told me that his partner died and was cremated today. She was 38 and had hepatitis and liver failure, due to drugs including alcohol.

It is a sobering ministry. However I am always encouraged by the positive and optimistic view of life taken by the people I meet.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 1 month ago #
laurak - Member

Yes, Noel, there is a more private side of this ministry. The girls' stories are absolutely heartbreaking. I could tell them to you, but they really aren't for a public forum, like this. Alot of physical & sexual abuse...

I have been a mentor to 2 girls this past 9 months on a weekly basis and know them on a more personal level. I've visited 6 girls all together, this year on a weekly basis.

Most of the volunteers in our ministry do not visit the girls alone, though, and just see them during our classes. One other volunteer in our group also mentors girls on an individual basis. We are trying to get more people to come visit them. The girls mostly just need someone to talk to. That means more to them than all of the classes combined. They ask for people to please come see them. But, most people have a hard time making a weekly commitment to a girl, until she goes home.

I agree with you.

The classes do help the girls form a Catholic community, even in a prison enviornment, though. And they learn alot. They have alot of time on their hands, to learn to pray, read the bible and to seek (or renew) a relationship with God.

One of the young ladies I mentored went home a couple of weeks ago and we are going to the zoo. She loves the outdoors and animals. We talk regularly on the telephone. She was in the faith based unit and our facility lets us keep in contact with the girls when they leave.

I do wish more people would become interested in visiting prisons. When you walk in the room, you can tell by the look on their faces, why the Lord asked us to visit them. And they do give back to us so much more than what we give.

Laura K.

Posted 1 month ago #
noelfitz - Member

Laura

many thanks.

The Irish system and the American seem different.

In Ireland the people we visit mostly come from very deprived backgrounds, some have been homeless at a very young age.

But they are inspiring. In spite of everything they can meet with us and chat and we can be relaxed in their company.

I also do my visits with a friend. It is better that way.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 1 month ago #
lpioch - Moderator

Z, I have a quick question for you.
If God had not created (created the universe, creation, whatever you want to call it), would there be time?

Posted 1 month ago #
noelfitz - Member

Lpioch,

it is great to hear from you again.

I see three posts from you. They are written with clarity and full of faith. In a simple and positive way you show us how to live a good Catholic life.

You ask question:
"If God had not created (created the universe, creation, whatever you want to call it), would there be time?"

The Internet Encyclodia of Philoophy considersd whether there was time before the Big Bang, which may be equivalent to your query.

This is a tricky, challenging question.

Usually Google answersa all problems.

Wikipedai has for "time":
The operational definition leaves aside the question whether there is something called time, apart from the counting activity just mentioned, that flows and that can be measured. Investigations of a single continuum called space-time brings the nature of time into association with related questions into the nature of space, questions that have their roots in the works of early students of natural philosophy.

I also see:
"In the literature in both physics and philosophy, descriptions of the Big Bang often assume that a first event is also a first instant of time and that spacetime did not exist outside the Big Bang" http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/time.htm#SH4a.

Thus it seems that time would not exist if God had not created the universe.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
______________________________________________________________
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
______________________________________________________________

Posted 1 month ago #
michaelme - Member

Noel:

I had a question about your statement above:

"From this it seems to me that Mary's acceptance was a bit of a fiction."

What are you saying, here?

In Christ,
Michael

Posted 1 month ago #

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