I am annoyed and upset at the way the Catholics in America are turning on their own.

We Catholics should stick together and support our own.

I recently see that his bishop has denied Joe Finnegan Biden the opportunity from visiting and speaking at Catholic schools in his diocese.

U.S. Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi who considers herself “an ardent, practicing Catholic” has been condemned for statements about the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion by Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, Cardinal Edward Egan, Bishop Samuel Aquila and Bishop Michael Sheridan.

Kathleen Townsend Kennedy admitted on Irish radio some day ago that the Church in America has been trying to disown her family.

Rose Kennedy was a wonderful matriarch of a great Catholic family. Many were moved to tears to hear Ted Kennedy speak in Denver. He showed loyalty and courage. His commitment to the poor and marginalized throughout a distinguished career has been inspiring for so many Catholics. Eunice Shriver Kennedy and Kathleen Townsend Kennedy are also significant and inspiring members of this great Catholic family.

Mrs Townsend Kennedy has written:

“I recall what it was like to for me to grow up in my family at a time when faith inspired people to fight for civil rights, to join the Peace Corps, to make the USA a moral voice in the world. At that time, America and its churches, especially the Catholic Church, were embarking on a period of revolutionary transformation.”

The Democrats are reaching out for Catholic support. From Denver we heard John Kerry, Joe Biden and Bob Casey. Even Casey has been attacked for his abortion views.

I read:
“Casey, like his late father, is strongly pro-life. He has publicly stated his support for overturning Roe v. Wade. Casey's election gives Pennsylvania the distinction of being represented in the Senate by a pro-life Democrat.”

Finally I read:

“In recent decades, with civil rights for Catholics playing a lesser and lesser role, the Catholic vote is less uniform, and many voters are influenced through issues of abortion and gay marriage. This is coupled by the drifting apart of some Catholics from the church through questions of birth control usage and feminist issues. When it comes to personal issues such as marriage and the family, Catholics are generally considered conservative, but on issues concerning social justice they are generally considered liberal. This has created a divergence in the Catholic vote, thus making it a good demographic target around election time.”

Isn’t it time for Catholics to unite and fight for a better life for citizens and all throughout the world?

God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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Mreiner16

I am delighted to hear from you and of your strong rebuttal of the views I expressed.

It is pleasing to know that someone out there reads this round-table.

I do appreciate what you are saying.

I think I give my age and race away. When we were first married in the mid 1960s we went to the States, and I still look back at those happy days when we had a honeymoon lasting several years.

The contributions of the Clintons, Bob Carey and other US Democrats to peace in Northern Ireland stands.

I think it is so stupid that the Democrats and Catholics have split.

You mention:
"These include the right to abortion, homosexual marriage and use of embryonic stem cell."

To me abortion is wrong, murder is wrong. Homosexual marriage I have no problem with. It is an oxymoron as for a marriage there must be a male and a female. Embryonic stem cell research is also clearly wrong. But the exploitation of the poor and marginalized, depriving people of health care, forcing young families into poverty are also wrong. Locking up 2.2 million is wrong.

You wrote:

"It is the Church through it various ministries that support the homeless, AIDS victims, orphans and the marganalized in the world. "
Well said.

In the future more and more US Catholics will be Hispanic. The Church should show its support for them.

Once again, many thanks for your post.

I hope we will get back to our robust discussions, where we can discuss our views and learn from each other while remaining loyal, faithful and committed members of the People of God, as well as good friends

I hope we will get more responses here.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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Mreiner16

Thanks for your post.

I have just been watching on CNN Sarah Palin. It was a master stroke of the Republicans to choose her.

Catholics still count.

It would be great if more of our old friends came back to our discussions.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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Fishman

Thank you for your post.

I did not realize thay "the national democratic party is about promoting abortion , buggery and anti-religious animosity."

Jesus came to call sinners. He ate and drank with sinners. The Church is a Holy Church made up of unholy people. The Church has an obligation to love sinners.
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And as he sat at dinnerf in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sittingg with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Mt 9:10-13 (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989).
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God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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Fishman

You have a real point.

I admit everyone would wish to be Irish, or at least to have a grand-parent from Ireland. Both Obama and Biden claim Irish descent.

Seriously there a real problem at present in Ireland.

We have a relatively huge number of Africans coming here, many claiming to be escaping violence at home. We also have very many from other European Union countries coming here who, when jobs are becoming scarcer, add to our problems.

Thus immigration is a problem in the US and in Ireland.

You focus on different difficulties, on Catholic politicians not keeping the faith.

To me the problem is bigger. Very many Catholics in the States have rejected the teaching of the Church, not only politicians. I have referred before to this, please see http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=295.

I think we need a humbler more honest Church that admits its failures and seeks redemption.

God bless,
Noelfitz.
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IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS, IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS, IN OMNIBUS CARITAS.
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The US has had a Republican President for the last eight years. Has the abortion rate dropped during that time? From my estimates it certainly hasn’t by any significance. It behooves me as to why the American voters think that the election of either party will make a difference to the slaughter. Your politicians are not the root cause of the problem; your media moguls are as they have enormous influence on both your politicians and our society. We should be focusing our attention on those yet-to-be-held-accountable molders of modern thinking.

Boy-do we need more priests like Fr. John De Celles, STL, an associate pastor at Old St. Mary’s Church in Alexandria, Va. This is one of the best sermons that I have ever read-he hit it out of the park.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTY1MzAwOTc5MmViMzUyYzM5YmY3OWFkYzdkMzY0YzM%2d

Noel, I’ve read with interest, and much agreement, many of your posts on other threads. Here, I’d have to say that MREINER16 (and other posters here) seem much more consistent than you with regard to basic rights and wrongs herein debated. However, I would like to cast beyond politically-partisan stances, the important issues broached here.

There is a Culture of Death abroad in America (and elsewhere) that seized upon our political institutions to achieve the imbedding in American law, government and politics, deadly prejudices against the lives of certain classes of innocent human beings. Principal among these as to total number of human lives affected are innocent, defenseless human beings residing in their mothers’ wombs. Not a single one of the millions of such neighbors of us all, is protected in life by our laws! Can we abide by that reality?? Especially when we know that more than 3,000 of them are brutally killed each and every day. More, Noel, each and every day than were killed by terrorists one day seven years ago this month!

Yes, that’s where we are by virtue of politically-motivated judges, and politicians whose tenures in office mean more to them than justice. The sugar-daddies of these judges and politicians are the multi-billion dollar Culture of Death enterprises which have created affluent, celebrated, political-power-wielding leaders without whose bankrolling many a politician would be looking for another job. Yes, souls are being sold for tenure in office. (And Noel, don’t let some of them kid you that they are “good Catholics“. By their actions we will know them).

Now, here are some pertinent factors: (i) God’s Greatest Commandment includes His order “Love your neighbor as yourself”! That innocent, unborn human being is our neighbor but is being denied (Divinely Commanded) love by our manipulated law! (ii) That innocent’s mother is our neighbor, as well, but our law makes her vulnerable to any bum of a male companion who wants to impose insufferable pressure upon her until she “breaks down” and pronounces the words that will relieve the indecent bum of responsibility for the living welfare of his own child! WOMEN’S RIGHTS, indeed!! What a bill of goods we’ve all been sold, ESPECIALLY WOMEN!

Nice law, isn’t it Noel, that our judiciary created and our politicians prolong just so that they can stay in office?!

So the answer isn’t McCain or Obama alone. The answer is every politician seeking every office. We need to find out before the elections where each stands on abortion and let him know that we’re going to vote accordingly, no matter what his party. And let him (or her) know that should he slip through to incumbency his actions in office will be scrutinized to detect any culture of death-leaning actions, which will be addressed by us accordingly. This applies to local politicians right up to those seeking the presidency, regardless of political party!

There’s plenty of time before November to get the word out. Our ace-in-the-hole can be decent persons among the 50% of citizens eligible to vote who consistently - election after election - refrain from casting their ballots. They need reminding that THEIR VOTING INACTIONS cause God’s Commanded Love to be denied - LEGALLY - TO TWO GROUPS OF THEIR NEIGHBORS, as discussed above.

You know, “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. That ought to move all of us to begin to be wise enough to do what each of us is able to do, to care about and help (love, that is) these neighbors. You know, that could help some of our neighbors currently laboring for Culture of Death organizations. Such are not to be excluded from God’s expressed command that we love our neighbors as ourselves. (Neither are the bums I’ve spoken of disparagingly above. It’s their actions that have made them so self-centered as they are. Perhaps our actions will cause some of these neighbors too, to change their selfish habits.)

LET’S ALL GET WORKING ON THIS IN OUR OWN, SELF-MOTIVATED WAY!

Peace,

Jakes

Yes,

And - in a democracy - what turn politicians around are votes. We need to love even politicians, which we can do by stopping them from being complicit in the brutal killing by abortion of 3,000+ of our neighbors each and every day and by their subjecting pregnant women (our neighbors, too) to the terror of selfish males intent only on their own uninhibited "life-styles".

Peace,

Jakes

Thanks, Noel.

Yes, I'll tell you a little about myself but not much this evening and that might tell you something about how early to bed and early to rise is a necessity for me.

You've revealed several things to me. One is that computer screens other than my own contain the descriptor: moderator, in relation to myself. Now, wouldn't you think I'd have known that?

The second is the implication that Loretta's activity might be diminishing. I hope that isn't the case. And, no, I'm not replacing Loretta: I never could; her positive qualities are far beyond my capacities!

I'm just sort of a long-in-the-tooth commenter, a third generation Irish-American Catholic, WWII veteran from New England (not now) with ancestral roots in Cork.

I've had Christian Brother, Order of Preacher and secular education. My appreciation of the first two ever grows. I perceive a general foolishness (or death wish) in society's seeming unawareness (or rejection)that "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" to the extent that His underlying Commandment to Love (cf Mt 22:34-40) is so universally ignored (a rather unwise thing for anyone to do)!

Unwise to say the least are those who will not love (i.e., help with their votes cast in favor of their neighbors): (i) the 3,000+ innocent, defenseless human beings who are brutally (but legally) torn from their mothers' wombs each and every day of the year and (ii) the mothers of many of them - terrorized by selfish third parties into voicing their (legal) authorization for the lives of their babies to be sacrificed, ridding the third parties of a "bother" to their "lifestyles".

Yes, Noel, I'm off track and the hour is becoming late, so I'll relieve you of much further harangue. But my obsession, as revealed above centers on a terribly serious scar embedded in our political institutions that our society must heal, a responsibility as easily effected as is a democratic vote cast - just a stroll to the polls.

Peace and good night (or whatever time of day it is in the emerald isle),

Jakes

NoelFitz,

In light of your introductory statements starting this thread, to wit: ...

"I am annoyed and upset at the way the Catholics in America are turning on their own.

We Catholics should stick together and support our own.

I recently see that his bishop has denied Joe Finnegan Biden the opportunity from visiting and speaking at Catholic schools in his diocese."

... I would recommend, Noel, that you and any who might look favorably on the above statements and the thoughts you offered in their support, read the following, available through today's Catholic Exchange Homepage as follows:

Under the block entitled "The Church Today" there appears "The Bishops Speak" leading to "Statement in Response to Senator Biden".

Peace,

Jakes

Bhokuto:

To get them to come back means to have them "wash" from the other side.

I think that this needs to be done across government. The only way to do that, unfortunately, is incrementally, sometimes by electing the "bad" to get rid of the "really bad." Then hope that God provides a "better" either two or six years later.

I don't follow what you mean by "game."

In Christ,
Michael

Noel:

Thanks for your response. I have a couple of replies. And, to head off any thought that I'm being "mean," (not by you, but there are those...) I want to say that I appreciate your continued focus on what it means to be Catholic in this election cycle. Your arguments should provoke efforts by all of us to search for truth and continue in our formation.

The narrow view of Catholicism and 'Pro-Life' irritates and upsets me still.

I don't believe it is too narrow to view Catholicism as "pro-life." And while I would love to have the debate on the protection of the innocent resolved in favor of life, this won't happen in the U.S. until Roe can be reversed, necessitating, in all likliehood, the election of a Republican president.

Is it a mortal sin to vote for Obama?
Emphatically not.

Pope Benedict XVI noted

‘When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia , but votes for that candidate it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of appropriate reasons’.

I would prefer to believe the Pope rather than any individual bishop in the US.

Please forgive if I sound a bit terse, but I think you are playing a little fast with the quote. It is not the "pope's" quote but Cardinal Ratzinger's (July, 2004). While the point may seem trite, it would appear that you are trying to bolster the quote with an appeal to the pope's office rather than attribution to him as another bishop...a well-placed one, to be sure, but a bishop none-the-less. In addition, "proportionate" is very clearly defined in terms of that which constitutes "remote material cooperation." Your stated reasons below, while having merit, do not meet the criteria for "proportionate." In fact, if one voted for Obama, even disagreeing with his stand on abortion in favor of these other reasons, one is in either in immediate matrial cooperation with evil or proximate mediate material cooperation with evil (but not remote), both of which are considered sinful acts.

I would also prefer to encourage voting for a candidate of integrity, rather than one who dumps his wife injured in a serious accident for one who is wealthy and can finance his political ambitions.

I would prefer to vote for a candidate with integrity, too. We can snipe at what that may mean, but I would suggest that voting to kill an abortion survivor rather than extend to the child the rights as a human shows some lack of integrity or, at least, good formation as it pertains to his ability to make well-formed decisions.

I would prefer to support a Catholic who has remained within the Church (Biden) rather than one who rejects the Catholic Church she was baptized into (Palin).

We can argue all day about whether Biden is more Catholic despite his votes on abortion or Palin despite her activities in a daughter church. Both may be the product of being improperly catechized and I don't have standing to make a judgement, only express an opinion.

If a candidate claims she was in Iraq when she was in Kuwait, she is either a liar or very stupid.

Your critique is well-taken and I would hope that your comment would be the same for Hillary's statments about being under fire in Kosovo or Obama's statment about not being present during a sermon of the Rev. Wright's.

Under Democratic presidents there was peace in the world, and American was wealthy, having a surplus, now the US is in financial chaos. What was so wrong in wanting to get rid of poverty, to allow people to own their own homes and to have good health care for all?

Like Woodrow Wilson in WWI, FDR in WWII, Truman in Korea, or Johnson in Viet Nam? That peace during Democrat presidencies, you mean? America was also prosperous under Reagan, Theodore Rooseveldt, and Eisenhower.

Now in the US over 1% of the population is in jail (well over 2.2 million, the highest in the world, even higher than China). Infant mortality is on a par with third world countries. A new type of slavery is developing, where millions of people have no rights and are exploited (illegals, undocumented). Financially the country is in meltdown, yet the Republicans spend billions propping up their banker friends throug.

These are only a few of the things for which we are voting. You'll have to provide some evidence that an Obama presidency will change any of this, or that the money is to aid "banker friends" rather than stave off further problems. Whether it is wise or not is another argument.

Regardless, none of these rise to the level of "proportionate" in its proper context.

In Christ,
Michael

Noel:

Great comments. All of the issues outside of abortion deserve thoughtful discussion but, by Catholic standards, are they "proportionate" reasons to vote for a candidate who supports a doctor's legal standing to kill an infant without challenge?

That millions of Catholics will vote for Obama is not an argument in his favor nor is it important that half don't consider abortion a "big issue." Whether they commit mortal sin or not is not mine to judge. I don't know their level of formation. What I can say, through my study of the issue, is that I believe that I would be placing myself in mortal sin to vote for Obama without proportionate reasons.

McCain and Palin support abortion in limited cases which, while not the Catholic position, is not proportionate reason to support an Obama presidency where the candidate believes in, essentially, unrestricted access to the procedure. However, these very reasons provide a McCain vote with proportionality, placing the voter in only "remote mediate material cooperation with evil" (per Ratzinger, above); that is, that one has good reason to believe that a McCain presidency will limit procured abortion more than an Obama-led government. Therefore, by my understanding, it is not sinful to cast a vote for McCain and it is sinful to cast one for Obama.

Your thoughts.

In Christ,
Michael

Noel:

One other item should be addressed in your post,is the contention that the US infant mortality rate is that of a third-world country. This gets into the realm of "lies, damn lies, and statistics." The US reports any birth when the child is breathing and moving as a "live birth," even those where the child is born extremely prematurely. This is not the same for other countries where factors like weight(Canada, Germany, and Austria do not report infants with a birth weight of <500g) or length (Switzerland, for example, doesn't count the death of infants whose length is <30 cm) also are counted and, if the child falls below acceptable criteria, is not reported as a "live birth." It is actually the US's stringent adherance to WHO standards of reporting and its ability to extend the lives of premature infants which sway the stats.

In Christ,
Michael