Noel,

You deny the Holy Spirit from reigning in your Higher thinking, reasoning,
thus you find it hard to even believe what the Church says regarding the Deeper Mysteries of God. Thus you even do not agree with Original Sin in all of its' definitions. Which St. Paul spells out in Romans. Of which you call me gnostic. Of which you have no idea what gnostic is only in your small view. If you deny St. Pauls teaching in Romans you deny The Churches Teaching of sin because that's where most of the sin teaching comes from for New Testament believers. For true believers understand the Old Testament which the Word of God spoke to the Hebrews. They were a chosen people, each person was guaranteed Heaven as long as they kept the commandments.

When Jesus came, He instituted a New Covenant. A Covenant built on His Blood. This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in My Blood. Thus we must also shed our blood for Him. How do we do that?
By crucifying ourselves.

Peace

When you say to imitate a saint, you do not see God. But rather some aspect of what you may think is of God. Therefore you may err greatly.

Only God is perfect, therefore keep your eyes on what is Truly Perfect. It is an act. We must Act
that is what the saints found out. One must Act. When you sit behind on your laurels and yap away
you can be anything you wish, seeing that you are not really acting by moving about doing some work
of charity. Thus you can imagine grandoise things. But when you actually act and do works of charity, that is when all your gradoise noise becomes very silent. It is called being Humbled.
God allocates evil and good for your own good. Life is about learning to assimilate acts of Charity. The Lessons of Charity, because he who loves has Imitated God and thus becomes like God
in that he/she has loved to the fullest.

Love is Perfect. Love is of God. Thus when you love, you follow God not the saint. St. Paul says if you follow some other doctrine you become followers of that doctrine not Gods.

Does Jesus say: Follow My Apostles?

Who by the way have become Saints. This is the test. If you say yes, you are an idiot and a buffoon. And truly deserve whatever outcome it leads to. Remember Adam and Eves' sin. They followed an Angel from God.

Does the Saint give power? Jesus gave power to His disciples, Consider the Source and consider
the Mission of Jesus Man-God, He came as man for man and God as the Son of God. Deeper yet,
still deeper is the Mystery of God in the Trinity. If God created Wisdom, speech, languages,
how much we still do not understand His greatness. How proud man is.

Peter says in acts to one Simon who wanted to Pay for the Holy Spirit with money to go away and think about this gift which comes from Heaven. Thus you can see where I'm leading so far.

Nevertheless, Idolatry is still in effect today. God has not changed one iota of the Law.

Peace

Well, all I can say is...

We ought not to follow bhokuto, even if he ever becomes a saint.

Praise God.

Alas - bhokuto writes (misspelledly) of 'grandiose noise' - then, makes it in a kind of meandering fashion. Of his arguments, you really had to be there.

Of Adam and Eve, bhokuto, who I believe out of pure love for His 'initial cut' God led to Himself and Home - name one of their children who has not been led by lusts rather than our Savior. Those saints you would have us scorn and ignore permitted God to conquer these in themselves - hence, THEY ARE WORTH LEARNING FROM, EMULATING, PRAYING TO and other such human-level discipleship. If not from saints, from whom would we learn as from
"They will know that you are Mine by your love for one another"?

Oh, bhokuto - how (perhaps) doth He weep over thee - hath thee no other site to which to bring thy fester and pester?

Michael, you naughty-thinking lad - the 'f' of 'fubar' is 'fouled' - 'FOULED up' - not that - that - OTHER word.

Alright,

Here's to all the smart guys.

Who is St. Paul? notice -- the Abbreviated "St." short for Saint.

Who is St. John?

Who is St. Peter?

They are apostles by vocation -- title which Christ gave.

next:
Who do these "Saints" say to Imitate in their Writings? [ Hint: Bible ]

Jesus Christ, God.

Consequently, all things they speak of because Gods words are eternal whether on paper or in sound, have connection and can be used if you know how to connect the dots. Of which, most of you here in this post have not figured out. What is centripetal force?

The Church, that is those who are still following Christ, says to:
"Love God, Serve God and Know God." The contemplation of God. This is what angels and saints in Heaven do. Contemplate God, along with Praise and Worship, and other things like spiritual warfare for people down here, or Assistance.

The ones who are not Following God say otherwise. Follow this saint, follow this priest, follow this bishop, follow this person, and put him/her so high up that he becomes your god in place of God which has happened over and over. Subtetly. So, the key, Bible verses say to "Trust in God", "Love God", "Follow God", "Obey God". God only. Because He's the one you will be standing in front of at physical death and at the final judgment. He's the one that says you can come in and rest, or you can go feed on fire. He's the one that gave 10 commandments; He's the one that created you; He's the one that Died for you; He's the one that created the Church;
And some knuckle head clergy wants you to go astray and follow and imitate some saint you have never met. Faith in the wrong things. Faith in God only. Period.

When you have read Your Bibles and Know who is speaking,
You should come to the inevitable conclusion which every person who listens to the Holy Spirit ends with -- Imitate God, these "Saints" tell you who to follow and Imitate. Of which, Our Church gets it's lessons from. All things of the Church come from God, that is all things Spiritual. The Rest is not of God. It is either man-made or Satanic.

Spiritual lessons that bring you closer to God and not yourself.

For all Good and Evil have to come to perfection, but mostly Evil. Because God is good. Evil has to come to the most perfect state in order
for God to put an end to it. Another words the Tree of Good and Evil must become full grown. It is so close.

Did you know that the Church on earth follows Christs life? Birth, growth,
life, death, resurrection, ascension? It does, but not as human thinking
as in following the path of events as Christ.

Here's quick study: Christ lived as man 33 years, Incarnate.
The Church has been around now for 2008 years, or 20 centuries.
Now according to God, one century is equal to 1 of Gods years if He were to
equate years in Heaven. Since eternity is non-time bound it is always "NOW" that's what eternity means, no end no beginning always "NOW".

So if we equate 33 years of Christ's life who is God to God's years,
and multiply 33 times 100 we get 3300.

We now go this route:

20 centuries of Gods time equals 2000 of our years;
as we read in Revelations it is stated that, after the Antichrist and Satan is tossed back down to Hell, that there will be an era of Peace
which will last 1000 years. Lets now add 2008 + 1000 = 3008.
Now what is unsure at this time, in Revelations pertaining to giving
the Antichrist 3.5 years of power over all the Earth's inhabitants equals
350 years of our time or an actual 3.5 years. Nevertheless we do not necessarily have to follow 3300 years to equate the Churches existence on Earth as following exactly Christs 33 years on Earth. It could but this
is speculation, it just happens to be a nice find.

In the Beginning God presented to man two paths to take,
one to everlasting Life with no death, no pain no suffering; second to everlasting death and pain through sorrow/suffering. These two paths we call them 1)Tree of Life and 2)Tree of Good and Evil or Knowledge of Good and Evil only no understanding of Life. It is when you deny latter Tree, you turn to the Other. And the difference is vast. The Tree of Life gives life to all your being; the Tree of Knowledge turns your flesh into
an idol and your spirit stays dead. Thus death all around. Your flesh is no longer alive to God, your spirit is cut off from Grace. God is Life. Satan is Death.

What is knowledge by itself? it is something to look at.
What is Wisdom? it is the infusion of knowledge with active understanding
another words it is living Word. It lives, it is alive it is unexplainable by human mind whose soul is not alive to God. [ Regeneration, reborn ]

Knowledge by itself without a fire or an activator has no legs no arms no life. Just sits and it's nice to look at. has some substance but no Life.

Know don't get me wrong, knowledge is good, because it is created by God, but the knowledge without Grace that is Wisdom, is worthless it cannot get you into Heaven, it cannot equate to anything spiritual because it lacks Grace, this is what happens when you go for knowledge only. It is the same as dead weight. A bunch of rocks you can use to throw. Knowledge of God is the Wisdom, it is more than knowledge simply because it reveals God, and when you have God you have all you need. This is what Heaven is. God. God is infinite. When you end up in Gods presence you do not require anything else because He is everything.

But for human beings who are used to living in the material
world this does not make any sense because, we look at what is materialized. Not what is spiriualized. Very difficult for most people to even grasp. Even Doctors of the Faith had a long hard road to come to this realization, because the flesh is dead weight and continually wars against the soul. It takes The Holy Spirit Who illuminates Gods Wisdom
and teaches, hovers over us, Who is constantly perpetually preaching and teaching the Gospel. This is His mission to Bring the Gospel to Men.
And with the Help of the Holy Spirit, with men who cooperate with Him,
they as long as they do not fall by the way side as is the habit of the majority, they become "saints". Your will is what makes it happen.

You must want to be a "saint". Sears Die-hard battery doesn't even come close. It runs out of power.

Peace

Noel,

Good luck. Because that's what you believe in.

Peace
stu

Also, to leave with clarifing: Angels so that people aren't fearful.

When I said Adam and Eve followed an Angel from God it was more instant that clear.

As I was shown in a few mysteries, that Michael Archangel defeated Lucifers
imitation of himself thus the wound on the First Beasts head which says in Revelations: Deathly inflicting wound or to this effect, it literaly means fatal wound, since angels cannot die. Lucifer/Satan heals this wound.

The Antichrist: Comes in the power of Satan, just his look, his glare
causes people to surrender to him. Do not look at your tv's, monitors
or any screen when he comes into power. You will end up like Lots wife,
pillar of dust.

Now to clarify angels.

The ones who remain faithful and true to God come to us and bring us messages, and assistance, such as Blessed Gabriel Archangel who is the 70 weeks Angel in Daniel, the Angel at Gethsemane came to Jesus during the Agony in the Garden, the Angel of Emence Light in Revelations lights up the whole world; and Gods Strength. And we can call on his assistance
in this Prayer:

Blessed St. Gabriel Archangel, We implore you to interecede for us at the throne of Divine Mercy: As you did announce to Mary the mystery of the Incarnation, so through your prayers may we receive strength of faith and courage of spirit, and thus find favor with God and redemption through Christ our Lord. May we together sing the praise of God our Savior with the choirs of angels and saints in Heaven, throughout eternity. Amen.

Michael Archangel: Gods Witness, defeats the Beast and sends Satan and his followers back down to Hell.

Angels come to our assistance, call upon all the choirs of angels and saints in our day each day to save a soul you know needs to be saved.
Bring them to our Lord each day in the Blessed Sacrament: Holy Communion:
In prayer before the Crucifix; In prayer in spiritual abandonment-denying the flesh, the world, the devil. With the eyes of the spirit you will see light, we are children of Light, your spirit is lit by His Light, this is how you receive from God a flash of light. And sometimes instructions which come in the form of Infusion with no sound no words but just Light.

I'm not talking about false light where there is perturbation and flagelation and flattery, but Power in the Truth which is From God.

Never deny the Church you will forever regret this decsion. And God and your guardian angel alone are witnesses. Do not forget about the rest who are witnesses: All the Choirs of Angels and Saints.

Peace Live well in Christ be worthy of your calling your gift.

bhokuto,

Since you must needs think that the Church must canonize and in the 'venerable' and 'blessed' process be in some kind of heresy, why do you bother with us orthodox hierarchy-following folk?

Worse, I find that I prefer not only your one-sentence posts, but find you sound repetitive even when you are not. Take it from a fellow windbag - it ain't pretty. And, SO much of your debate is about stuff no one IS debating with you. It causes you to respond to - YOURSELF! Do you talk to yourself - AND respond - often? Maybe you need to get out more?

Making any significance out of 'Saint', which I prefer, and 'St.', which you seem to prefer, is like arguing about whether to spit-shoot watermelon seeds this side of the fence or the other. I don't think that the prelim particular-judgment questionnaire will test us on that, do you? I mean, either the spelling or the seed shooting.

And - HEY! - I looked in my favorite (RSV-CE) Bible and found 'saint' spelled both ways; seems we're both right. Oh, by the way, my personal RSV-CE looks as worn as it should - indeed, so does my NAB. I known the Bible as both 'wondrous of truth' and 'still not enough' - I am not as capable as two millenia (and Fathers and Doctors and theologians, et al) has made the Church.

As for your seeming obsessive-compulsive damning of our thoughts out of the Bible - VERY Protestant of you, you know. I'd expect more out of yet a-n-o-t-h-e-r reformation. I mean, I'm still trying to catch up on VatII, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI study. And, then there is re-reading Bible and VatII cross-refered Catechism sections, and apologetics, and Hardon, Kreeft, Hahn, Catholic Answers, and the ever-burgeoning 'Net offerings (e.g., CE), and even back to G.K.C, C.S.Lewis, Hilaire Belloc. Whoooo! (S-I-G-H!) - Some I won't get to until I am reading out of the Lord's own library.

1 Peter 2:21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

25 For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls.

If we say that Christ Built His Church on the "Rock" and the "Rock" says what he said above,
then, we ought to listen and follow his advice.

Peace