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. . . Notes of a Christian Exile

(13 posts)
  • Started 2 months ago by wljewell
  • Latest reply from wljewell

wljewell - Member

I love reading Richard John Neuhaus, editor in chief of First Things. He is one of those who has made my 'cerebral' Christianity take on modern, cultural yet Christocentric life. Not 'of this world', he has helped to immerse me 'in this world' in ways I can appreciate. And, yes, yet another convert, he leaves the kind of 'fresh breeze' to faith that we find so often in Mark Shea, Mary Kochan, and convert commentators in the CE community. I bow, touched and tempered and catechized the more to our convert Catholics.

In the process of writing a book for publication next spring, titled American Babylon: Notes of a Christian Exile, he has left notations about it at the web site for First Things, http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/; current submission titled An Election About the Nature of the Church. In it, he sufficiently covers why 'the one-issue' is more than enough issue. And, why, in cultural surrender, some Catholic folk go into contortions to not-look-one-issue. And, he reflects as he has before that our culture leaves us feeling exiled, even as we have to live in it so as to help it know Jesus Christ. Or, as Father Neuhaus put it: "To be a Christian is to be out of step, until, as St. Paul writes to the Philippians, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil. 2:10-11)."

I look forward to his new book. Why don't you take a look into his article and find what you find.

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

Warren
You wrote:
"He is one of those who has made my 'cerebral' Christianity take on modern, cultural yet Christocentric life."

Your Christianity certainly has a cerebral influence, yet is Christocentric. What Christianity could be difference?

I think we disagree on some things, but we agree on commitment to the Catholic Church.

However I think I am strongly influenced by my history as an Irish Catholic, who lived in the US during the late 60s. I must have influenced my children, as one of them still has a portrait of John F Kennedy on his wall. I find it difficult to consider supporting a Republican. I think they cynically exploit Catholics. Has any Republican overthrown Roe vs Wade?

I think I really am very tribal. I support my tribe. I may have sounded very liberal and ecumenical but when the chips are down I support my own.

I would find it hard to support the apostate Palin, bur easy to support the Irish-Catholic Joe Finnigan Biden. McCain, who considered that some evangelicals were agents of intolerance, is not anti-abortion. Is a little murder OK?

I am moved by the oratory of Obama, combining JFK and Martin Luther King.

The American pro-life movement is too narrow. Pro-life should be about having life and having it to the full. This means good education, good health care and a decent income for all.

I have read replies in CE, where my "new-age anti-Catholic drivel" has been condemned saying it is better to support an evangelical who is against abortion, rather than a cafeteria Catholic.

I disagree. We support our own. We hang together, not separately. Some Catholic politicians may be b***ds,, but they are our B***ds, as I have said before. Some Catholic bishops may have failed to deal adequately with pedophilia, but they are our bishops and we stick with them.

Anyway, you have said you will keep me in your prayers, I appreciate this. I remember you and all my friends in CE. I appreciate their support and welcome the opportunity to debate with them and be supported by them.

Posted 2 months ago #
wljewell - Member

Permit this old man a detailed response.

Your Christianity certainly has a cerebral influence, yet is Christocentric. What Christianity could be difference? And, too I think we disagree on some things, but we agree on commitment to the Catholic Church. To which you’ll get no argument from me.

However I think I am strongly influenced by my history as an Irish Catholic, who lived in the US during the late 60s. I must have influenced my children, as one of them still has a portrait of John F Kennedy on his wall. I find it difficult to consider supporting a Republican. I think they cynically exploit Catholics. Has any Republican overthrown Roe vs Wade? No – Roe v Wade is as hard to overcome as any decision by our Supremes; why we have to settle too often for incremental pro-life gains. However, would the justices Alito and Roberts (or Scalia and Thomas) come out of any Democrat? For over two decades, the Democrats have made abortion a litmus test for judicial appointments at ever federal level; e.g., ‘borking’ Bork and attempting to do so with Thomas. One of the ad-campaign points of the Democrats has been that B.O. will make for an iron-clad Roe v Wade supporting cast of justices. Add F.O.C.A. (and good-bye ‘incremental pro-life gains’) to that, from out of B.O.’s projected first acts as President, and backing B.O. is like fostering blood-letting as a physician’s best procedure. Frankly, JFK would agree with Republicans on one point after another, not simply ‘culture of life’ issues. He was far more conservative than most Democrats, including you and even his own daughter, it seems, remember. I favor the allusion that has B.O., et al, effectively translating JFK’s famous injunction: “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country” into “Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country is going to do for you.”

I think I really am very tribal. I support my tribe. I may have sounded very liberal and ecumenical but when the chips are down I support my own. Might you be confused about who are ‘your own’? You are getting to an age where your apparent ‘tribe’ would set you off on an ice floe, to shorten your unfortunate (and expensive) dotage. I sadly blush to admit that I have found tribes about my very Catholic Midwest America that are uniformly Catholic by breath but not-so-very by actions. For one thing, find them-and-theirs in the Sunday-morning pews.

I would find it hard to support the apostate Palin, bur easy to support the Irish-Catholic Joe Finnigan Biden. McCain, who considered that some evangelicals were agents of intolerance, is not anti-abortion. Is a little murder OK? Come off it! McCain is more pro-life and anti-abortion than any prominent Democrat. But, further, one needs to be Catholic to submit to ‘Catholic’ dogma? [The shadow of: ‘only them there Catholics get into heaven’.] Biden barely qualifies, in my book, as a Catholic; indeed, like B.O., he seems to take guidance from his own lights, not the Church’s – is he any less an apostate, then? With confusion about ‘tribe’ and all, are you masking off truth from your considerations?

I am moved by the oratory of Obama, combining JFK and Martin Luther King. HARDLY does B.O. invoke the best of JFK and MLK. The man is clearly too full of himself. Ego-bound rhetoric does not a statesman make.

The American pro-life movement is too narrow. Pro-life should be about having life and having it to the full. This means good education, good health care and a decent income for all. NONE – education, health, income, etc. – of which a baby forced into death can ever have, eh? To paraphrase Saint James, show me your pile of issues worth my efforts, and I will show you my one-issue that needs must precede them.

I have read replies in CE, where my "new-age anti-Catholic drivel" has been condemned saying it is better to support an evangelical who is against abortion, rather than a cafeteria Catholic. And, though there may be an injustice in so condemning you, but where, in citing that a pro-life Protestant (or Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, animist, atheist, anti-theist, agnostic, what-have-you) is better than a pro-death alleged Catholic? How is any of the former not simply more correct than the latter, but far less misleading and scandalous?

I disagree. We support our own. We hang together, not separately. Some Catholic politicians may be b***ds, but they are our B***ds, as I have said before. Some Catholic bishops may have failed to deal adequately with pedophilia, but they are our bishops and we stick with them. Ahh – let’s mix the apples and oranges now, huh? It was very similarly like the Democrats who insisted on letting Fred and Fannie get us into financial hot-water that such partisan-agenda-driven ‘liberals’ in and out of the Church LONG-ago (1950s) questioned (as urging) letting homosexuals into the ordained ranks. So – the bishops let them in – to have further ‘liberals’ add that their homosexual (NOT pedophiliac, 90% of the time) actions could be cured by simply moving them about, parish to parish. And so – seemingly – you favor ‘tribes of buzzards’ [my faux translation of ‘b****s’], do you? More, we may have tribes of fools, about us; however, circling the wagons does not make the tribe less foolish.

Anyway, you have said you will keep me in your prayers, I appreciate this. I remember you and all my friends in CE. I appreciate their support and welcome the opportunity to debate with them and be supported by them. T’ain’t a one of us here doesn’t need all the prayers of all others – I persist in prayer for all of us-and-ours to get into a deliriously ecstatic group-hug right in front of the Celestial Throne, by-and-by.

Peace be unto you – His peace I pray for you.

Posted 2 months ago #
michaelme - Member

Noel:

I’m sorry if you are feeling that you are “in the wars” here. If I have made you feel that your opinion is not respected in any way, please accept my apologies. I have only wanted to engage in discussion with you. In truth, I would love to have the chance to vote non-McCain and was hoping that you could provide the argument. In our local caucus, I put Alan Keyes forward, a good Catholic and with strong conservative credentials. Would you have selected a Keyes candidacy over an Obama one, given the choice? I respect your thoughtful consideration of all aspects of what a president must do.

Your comment about Republicans cynically exploiting Catholics is interesting. Can you expand? My opinion is that both parties do this and that the Democrats in particular do so with more abandon – claiming a Catholicism that is in direct contradiction to the actual faith. This is no attempt to be confrontational, simply an invitation to dialog on the subject. One area in which your criticism of Republicans is correct is that Roe v. Wade has not yet been reversed. There have certainly been a number of Republican administration appointees that have not shown spine on this issue. I am of the opinion, however, that in the Reagan and Bush One years, SCOTUS appointees were not vetted on these particular views, but other criteria. I think the same is true of other Federal Bench appointments.

When you say, too, that you “support your tribe,” of which tribe are you speaking; Democrats or Catholics? Palin may be apostate, but “Irish-Catholic” has as much to do with being a faithful Catholic as “African-American” has to do with being truly African. If a person cannot live out the fullness of the faith he professes, can he be said to be “faithful?”

And when you say:

“McCain, who considered that some evangelicals were agents of intolerance, is not anti-abortion. Is a little murder OK?”

I am not sure where to go, precicely. Is “tolerance” a virtue? As to McCains status viz. abortion, it is a question of whether his position is less permissive than that of his opponent. If the two were equal in their promotion of this moral evil, than abortion would be “off the table” as an issue for the Catholic. But they are not equal. John Paul II said in Evangelum Vitae

” A particular problem of conscience can arise in cases where a legislative vote would be decisive for the passage of a more restrictive law, aimed at limiting the number of authorized abortions, in place of a more permissive law already passed or ready to be voted on. Such cases are not infrequent. It is a fact that while in some parts of the world there continue to be campaigns to introduce laws favouring abortion, often supported by powerful international organizations, in other nations-particularly those which have already experienced the bitter fruits of such permissive legislation-there are growing signs of a rethinking in this matter. In a case like the one just mentioned, when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects." [Empahsis mine].

McCain’s record is clear on his opposition to blanket abortion. Obama’s record is clear in his absolute support of this particular form of evil, including his support for the particularly egregious and galling FoCA.

Noel, I do agree with you when you say, “Pro-life should be about having life and having it to the full. This means good education, good health care and a decent income for all.” But if life and its opportunities are denied to any portion of the population, can the rest of us really say that we have a just society. If the killing of a person yields more opportunities for me, is it justified?

Rather than saying that “they are our b*****ds,” we need to say that we will do our best to fraternally correct them. Christ is clear in Matthew (18, 15-17) about the steps to be taken in correction of a member of the Body who sins. I don’t read this as a paraphrase of “stick with the b*****d.”

Noel:

Please don’t feel “in the wars” with me. I respect your intellect, your passion, and your attempts to reconcile our shared faith with the complexity of life. I hope that you can trust that I am trying to learn as well. Perhaps my written demeanor seems adversarial, but may I assure you that it is intended only to ask the hard questions in order to learn.

In Christ,
Michael

Posted 2 months ago #
wljewell - Member

Michael, Noelfitz, et al,

Though we have no wars here, we have extensions of battles older than Christ Himself. Abortion itself is a stunning demonstration of ongoing battling and struggle. Indeed, of confrontation, not only Jesus Christ's questions but His answers seemed to take the gloves off.

To me, the 'complexity of life' is given counsel and response in Gospel and Chiurch. I don't need Republican, Democratic, Libertarian, ad nauseam, parties. I have no compulsion to McCain, nor Obama, nor even Paul or Keyes. Of power, governance and politics, it is indeed too often and too much of going with 'the lesser evil'. So be it, for fallen man.

My party - indeed, tribe, if you will - is quite simply in and of Jesus Christ, Him crucified; He Who ordered me to obey His Commandments if I am to demonstrate my love for Him; Who left His Church to keep His orders and Commandments in my mind and heart.

'You shall not murder' is one of the plainest and most rational of His Commandments. We disobey to not only personal perdition but loss of civilization. And, how do we call any 'right' inalienable if very life itself is not a right - in every aspect?

If any of us feel the heat of our error(s) in others' responses to them, then it is for that person to try to get off Hades' grill. (Or, show how he is not on it.) For, as long as one denies that awful heat, and stays to find any warmth in it, how is the person not adversarial with truth, and therefore with those who are 'on the side of truth'?

In a sense, apologetics cannot at all be apologetic. Evangelization is to get tough with each other over our very human errors. And, as none of us is needless of prayer, none of us in unneedful of constant evangelization.

Posted 2 months ago #
MREINER16 - Member

Noel- I don't view this as a war and as anyone else in this country, we are entitled to make choices and decsions as to what we hold as fundamental beliefs and truths. This is wher being an American Catholic can be extremeley difficult. We were all raised in this country with a spirit of independence and yet this is (at least in my understanding of Catholicsm) at odds a bit with the Church. The Church is not a democracy. We all are called to discern through the Holy Spirit and to form our consciences as best we can. The Church is here to help and guide us and in the case of life issues has instructed all of us as to the primary importance in respecting and defending life. Again, my undertsanding of what the Church has taught here through its Faithful Citizenship document is there is very limited and as yet I could not describe any where other social issues would override the fundametally intrinsic evil of abortion. In simplest terms, the Church is a club and like any club it sets its own rules. In this case we beleive the fundamental rules are divinely inspired and so as a member I have some choices: abide by the rules, don't abide by the rules and claim I am still a member of the club, or don't abide by the rules and join another club. In all honesty and I hope a degree of charity, I find those that are making the second choice to be disingenuous. I think that all our bishops are merely doing right now is telling those who made choice 2 that they are not following the rules, but we would still like you to be members as long as you conform to the rules. What they have not said in public yet (to my knowledge) is if you persist in your choice, you yourself, not the Church, have disqualified yourself as a member (Excommunication).

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

Warren and Michael

I am very moved by your long and thoughtful replies to me.

First of all I was not referring to anyone is this round-table when I said I was in the wars. I feel here (maybe incorrectly) I am among friends who care for me and are part of my family, the Catholic community.

Warren, your detailed and charitable post really was building up. Here in Ireland I am considered a right wing fundamentalist, yet in CE and Catholic Answers I seem very liberal (I think). Two sides of the Atlantic differ.

I would like to go over all the points made by you, as I agree with nearly everything you say. As a Catholic how could it be otherwise?

Perhaps we have a difference of emphasis and in debate I am inclined (perhaps) to overstate my case to make a point.

Neither of you have attacked me personally and you have discussed the issues as issues, not as personal attacks.

It is late now so I do not want to respond to all your points. However I am thankful for your interest, friendship and prayers.

BTW before I went to America I thought I was a Catholic, but when I went there I became aware I was an Irish-Catholic. We may be argumentative, but we will hang on in there with the faith.

Posted 2 months ago #
MREINER16 - Member

Noel- As a second generation Irish-American-Catholic, I know what you mean about being a bit argumentative. Perhaps you've seen this before-it;s one of my favorite Irish saying:

May those who love us love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May he turn their ankles,
So we'll know them by their limping.

Peace!

Posted 2 months ago #
michaelme - Member

Noel:

It's always interesting to me how words change in meaning. In its most simple terms, a political "Conservative" in the U.S. is one seeking to maintain the "liberal" principles upon which the country is founded. A "Liberal" in the U.S., again most broadly, is one seeking to create social justice through the institution of the government, the idea of which is opposed to classical liberalism.

One can argue that classical liberalism (U.S. Conservatism) could have prevented the situation leading to the current economic crisis by removing the "Liberal" (US definition) Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) provisions from Gramm-Leach-Bliley (GLBA). CRA in seesnce forced banks to make risky loans (low-income, poor credit, etc.) and find ways to mitigate the risk associated with "down market" (sub-prime) loans. This led to a liberalizing (increased risk environment) of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's securitizing procedures, provided impetus for banks to develop creative lending instruments, and helped inflate the housing bubble.

GLBA was a Republican-led measure but creating more regulation viz. CRA was a compromise.

The conservative movement itself can be divided into two camps - NeoCon and PaleoCon - with respect to their differing views on how to engage the rest of the globe.

I'm in former category. These are broad-brush definitions.

How are Conservatives and Liberals defined in Ireland?

In Christ,
Michael

Posted 2 months ago #
wljewell - Member

Michael,

You seem to have forgotten those who claim a ‘conservative’ fiscal view with a ‘liberal’ social aspect; and these operated from a governmental perspective. Rarely do they concede that they have to ‘do the work’ with seeing their conservative dollars spent on truly socially necessary work. I wonder in their waiting on the government how these free-market socialists would ever get anything accomplished. What with first barely ready to allocate funds to bureaucrats to pay for barely justified projects, then somehow claiming to still desire to have projects in the works, they can be viewed as libo-cons – as in liberally confused. They just cannot seem to observe that real charity is contracted between the one who needs and the one who gives to those needs. The middlemen of bureaucracy, and especially of government, simply expensively muddy the waters about charity.

As one too independent to sink conservative roots, I do have to admit that I would love it if local organizations of those already committed to service and acting as first givers to those who need – e.g., the ordained of every sect, food kitchen and pantry leaders, St. Vincent de Paul workers, organizers of shelters for various (e.g., pregnant mothers, teen runaways, overnight-bed shelter) missions, etc. – made the effort to find and support the needy; and then accordingly demonstrate the ‘local taxes’, and volunteers and facilities and services and the like, needed for the support. They could make a case for real charity that might make many a conservative producer just jump to be a very giving and generous local donor.

Though, libo-cons may be of a nature similar to the not-just-THAT-issue Catholic self-deceivers. They both want to be with-it ‘coastal’ types. But, do they have any clue as to why they would want to be?

Posted 2 months ago #
michaelme - Member

Pristinus:

You've identified the problem with simplification...it doesn't cover the nuances. I would still suggest that the broad terms capture what a "pure" US Conservative / Liberal would look like. The fact that one may attempt to preserve "liberal" fiscal foundations while attempting to promote a "Liberal" social agenda is proof that, with few exceptions, all of these people need to be unemployed (including those now running for the Presidency). It is not possible for government to spend money wisely (or effeciently or effectively) on social agendae. Unfortunately, we don't have a wiser government waiting in the wings.

Just have to muddle through with a focus on "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness," though I think John Locke had it as "Life, Liberty, and Property" as the fundamental rights of man.

In Christ,
Michael

Posted 2 months ago #
noelfitz - Member

Michael,

As you know I never disagree with anyone (well hardly ever (LOL)), but I think I disagree with you.

You wrote:
“ It is not possible for government to spend money wisely (or effeciently or effectively) on social agendae”.

‘Agenda’ is plural. It is not a feminine noun of the first declension.

The Oxford English Dictionary has for ‘agenda’:
Pl. of AGEND (sense 3), treated as a singular. Also transf., a (notional) list of things to be done, of appointments, etc.; freq. in phr. on the agenda. Cf. AGEND.

Also free market capitalism has failed. Many governments have at least partially nationalized banks. Socialism seems to be in the ascendant with governments trying to fix the problems caused by greedy capitalists by taking over banks.

However, I do not want to discuss economics here since it is outside our brief.

Posted 2 months ago #
wljewell - Member

Economics outside our brief? Maybe. But, we can discuss finances, if for no other reason than its is a very Christian thing to accomplish, to achieve financial freedom. For great instance, from such freedom - footed in truth, remember - can charity flow.

Free-market capitalism - as compared to our adulterated, degraded, corrupted "'socialized' capitalism" that does all it can in abhorrence of freedom in markets or anywhere and ends up individualized self-absorption - to paraphrase G.K.C. in his insight into Christianity, has not been tried and found wanting, but remains untried for its difficulties. You know, like responsibility? Like taking and fully accepting risk if one is to succeed? Like being 'my brother's keeper' by my own heart and hand without some bureaucratic middleman taking a minimum 33% 'commission'?

'Greedy capitalists' may only be surpassed for rapaciousness by 'aggressive, designing, driving, ‘earnest’, hard ball, power-loving [not to mention dangerously violent] socialists' - you know, like Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Planned Parenthood - ad nauseam (BIG time, ad nauseam!). [You may have noticed that 'greedy capitalists' have caused far less premature human death than the aforementioned socialistic ilk.]

Thus, to me, the political 'Christian socialist' is an oxymoron - a contradiction of terms on its face. It takes freedom to be fully Christian - and of most ancient slavish roots to 'look to Nanny'.

Posted 2 months ago #

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