In replies to an article in CE the following comments occur:

# noelfitz says:
November 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pm

This is a very thoughtful article.

Even though the number of abortions in the US is decreasing and legislation does not produce morality, it is important that every Catholic encourages sound catechesis to encourage an appreciation of the worth of human life at every level.

This includes:

1. banning the death penalty,
2. minimizing war,
3. discouraging drugs,
4. guaranteeing good health care for all including children and infants,
5. good education, especially in preserving life,
6. banning hand guns,
7. helping the poor and hungry so that their life expectancies may equal that of the rich and well fed.

It is particularly important for Catholics to reach out with love and respect to foster a love and appreciation of human life.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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# goral says:
November 25th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

We had the culture of life in this country along side the death penalty and handgun ownership and among others, two world wars. We didn’t have to teach life preservation because common sense and morality convinced our consciences to do as much.
Yes, social concerns lift up all of us but they don’t convict the soul of perverse ideas that gay marriage is acceptable, that calling someone a name is a hate crime, that it’s better to kill a life that would later be denyed healthcare and opportunity.
No, JP the Great saw through that because he experienced the same false gods as a boy in Facism and Communism. Looks like we need more convincing and convicting.
Obama’s red and brown shirts could be more of a reality than a scare ploy.
His recruitment campaign will fare well in the “decadent catholic corridor”.

# Warren Jewell says:
November 25th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

True, it is morality (however whole or crippled) that produces legislation, not the other way around; but moral action then arises from the causal morality. But, it is dangerously naïve to think that morality – or, enforced limitations to certain brands of ‘morality – plays little part in law.

For some of us, ‘banning the death penalty’ has a certain odor of not respecting life. There is something to be said for the ancient Mosaic code. And, such as banning handguns is but a first step to banning all guns; and, is sort of a reverse ‘death penalty’: in our nation, the locales with lowest crime have the most and most obvious guns.
The most dedicated soldier is most gravely ready for minimizing war. He also became military because we never seem to be without enemies who would just as soon start wars. The end of war probably has been a prayer intention since long before David first was given over to Jesse’s flocks. There will be war among us the very moment that Gabriel’s trumpet announces the return of Christ the King.
On discouraging drugs, I note that just about all of us have our ‘drug’ of convenient choice for worldly escapism. I consider the ‘drug’ of modern entertainment at least as eternally deadly as heroin or cocaine.
To ‘guarantee’ good health care for any is to assure ever-more-miserable such care for all. The incoming President has already made it plain that many doctors and hospitals – the truly Catholic ones – are likely to be lost to Americans in his foisting the phony ‘right’ to abortion on the institutions and providers of health care.
‘Good education’! Our very public education system, and even beyond into colleges, has been large part of what has ensured of an emotional, dumbed-down and thoughtlessly ignorant voting populace. How else could ‘we are our own change’ have been swallowed as if some specific, enlightened program?
Who has not wanted to ‘help the poor and hungry’ in every way possible? But, do these persons by and large wanted ‘help up’, or help to stay just as they are? In America, the proportion of ‘poverty’ in 1965 was 13%. In 2008, forty-three years and trillions spent in ‘help’ later, that figure is – 13%. Though He failed to mention proportion of population, Christ did note that such material poverty, like lack of spiritual poverty, will always be with us.

“. . . education . . . especially in preserving life” . . . “. . . it is important that every Catholic encourages sound catechesis to encourage an appreciation of the worth of human life at every level.” . . . “It is particularly important for Catholics to reach out with love and respect to foster a love and appreciation of human life.” I agree; however, such education and outreach just may be a hate crime in a year or two.

# noelfitz says:
November 25th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Warren

I do appreciate your detailed letter.

My motto is “[i]n necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas”, “in necessary things unity, in doubtful things freedom, in all things love/charity”. You show acceptance of this motto. While you disagree with me, with fairness, cogently, robustly and clearly in doubtful things, you equally agree on the necessary thing that abortion is murder and cannot be condoned.

A belief in the evil of abortion is shared by all, even OB. No one believes abortion is good. However the means to decrease the number of abortions differ. After the election Catholics need to do all they can to stop abortions.

Mathematicians talk about “necessary and sufficient conditions”. However to be pro-life it is a necessary condition to be anti-abortion, but not a sufficient one. There is more to pro-life than being anti-abortion.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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However in CE comments appear and no one pays much attention to them.

Here we can have longer discussions and can be more thoughtful and detailed, even though it seems only about five people read this round-table.

I hope I have made my points clearly. Essentially the views are simple. There is more to Catholicism than being anti-abortion.

One of the ten commandments is "you shall not kill/murder". Thus being anti-murder is not enough for a Catholic. We are more that right-wing, evangelical, conservative, fundamentalist Christian that go to Mass. Catholics belief in encouraging all to have life and having it to the full.

Jesus is "the way the truth and the life".

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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I agree that only begins with opposition to abortion , but would like to point out that you list does not make the criteria of proportionality set out by the church. In other words , if you had a politician who was ardently against abortion and his opponent was ardently pro abortion but solidly supported laws that would address all of the issues you listed you would still be committing a sin by supporting the latter in an election.

Here is why: abortion in the united states has killed 45 million people and since it was made legal here, influential and well financed camping has been launched to legalize the practice world wide.

1. banning the death penalty,
( in this country the death penalty has killed less the 1000 people in time abortion has been legalized. It’s use actually fits the critia for the use of the death penalty laid down by John Paul the second, specifically that it is used vary rarely. Also, the death penalty and murder are by no means the same thing. Support of the death penalty MAY show a lack of mercy , but the person killed has been legitimately convicted , in the united states with multiple appeals.)

2. minimizing war,
Always, a good thing, of coarse all of the wars and military actions the United states has been involved in since 1973 ( the year abortion was legalized). Do not equal 20 million.

3. discouraging drugs,
Sure, but how much influence does any one politician have over this, besides that
There are legitimate differences of opinion on how this can be most effectively accomplished. It also does not directly responsible for very many deaths and certainly most of those involved have a choice.

4. guaranteeing good health care for all including children and infants,
Very useful in supporting life , but arguably not something that can or even should be accomplished through the state.
5. good education, especially in preserving life,
Good being he key here, a secular education is more then insufficient it can be spiritually harmful, so merly supporting edication is not enough. Being uneducated doesn’t even rank when as opposed to killing people. It would be better to
6. banning hand guns,
Why is this a life issue? Never seen it listed in any church teaching. Why not also ban automobiles, more of them kill people. Also death by hand gun in the united states is considerably less the 45million.

7. helping the poor and hungry so that their life expectancies may equal that of the rich and well fed.
An absolutely laudable goal, however, you said nothing about protecting their lives or saving their souls, poverty is not an absolute evil, some people will not meet redemption without it. It is does not directly cause death and it is also debatable weather or not the state. As opposed to the community is the proper organ to help the impoverished.

Of John Kennedy - of whose best leadership potential we just can never know, now - what of his memory or legacy has permitted his Democratic Party to be one of the leading elements in the culture of death?

I say his promise not to let his Catholicism show through - and to Baptists, no less - led on into Cuomo's now hackneyed 'I am opposed to abortion BUT . . .' self-absolving cafeteria-ist Catholicism.

Again, Noel, for all your admirable Catholic fellowship, you didn't answer my detailed thoughts with your own. Let's pick just one.

How will, say, the SCOTUS under Obama in possibly "banning the death penalty" have any impact on the right to life as it is sundered by a FOCA-driven administration?

Prefer another? Well, I will claim, though of course arguably, that the preemptive anti-Hussein Iraqi strike by Bush's administration actually effected "minimizing war". Many terrorists and their material resources were forestalled for American 'adventures' to go to fight American troops in Iraq. I say that without Iraq (and Afghanistan) combat action, the U.S.ofA. would have experienced perhaps something(s) even worse than our 9/11/01 act of war. And, Americans would have screamed to have terrorists (AND sponsoring nations) counter-attacked in detail and annihilated in numbers by the U.S. armed forces. The blood on all hands would be frequent and thick; the ensuing chaos, unthinkable.

In truly fine fellowship, you would urge us to "hang on in there in spite of difficulties and try to spread the good news". It could be in a few short years of mainly undefined 'change' and spurious 'hope', it will be an American criminal hate-crime offense to spread the good news. Maybe, we will have 're-education' camps to see to our conformity to any and every evil.

noel- if Joe Biden was pro-life in the least respect I would be in full support of him. His voting record however shows clearly that his ACTION are 100% against regardless of his public rhetoric. Supporting joe Biden is of coarse also supporting his actions. I hopefully would not have supported Judas in his crucifixion of Christ. I plan on not supporting joe biden in his crucifixion of christ through the unborn, who are images of Christ. Judas was an apostle, and he would not have had my support. Joe Biden is only a citizen of the church , who should be expelled from it, he will even less so have my support.

Warren,

thank you for your post.

You remind us of basic points - the need to forgive, and also to be forgiven.

Some of the 'Fallen Away' may be closer to God that the more rigid believers. Who knows? We are all sinners and in need of God's mercy.

May I reiterate. Being Pro-Live is more that being anti-abortion. To me being anti-abortion is no big deal. It is only a part of one of the Ten Commandments: "You shall not kill/murder".

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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Jakes,

I think you miss my point.

Murder is wrong. Abortion is murder. But there is more to morality than rejecting abortion.

The person who is against murder but in favor of adultery, stealing, idolatry and dishonesty is not a good person.

There is more to being pro-life than being anti-abortion.

God bless,

NoelFitz.
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In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
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